AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

Best advice in the circumstances

Them working for you in a different country creates tax implications for the business. It is absolutely not allowed in my company.

I thought it might be possible for me to work from a family members house in the US, has my company already has offices there, but there were concerns about tax implications from it being in a different state.

You need to say no to the working and the lack of sign off before booking I think the employee might need to give their notice in now. Are you really sure they are worth keeping if their judgement is so off?

That’s a hard no.
They’re on probation and this is how they behave? Seems an easy decision to make really doesn’t it? Doesn’t matter that they’re saying they’ll work when they’re away - they’re expecting people to change procedures and systems around them and they’re on probation??? Nope. No.
Even if they cancel their plans if you request it they’ve shown what they’re like. ‘Not a good fit for the company’.

i would tell them to take one month's unpaid leave which will add one month to their probation.

If you are inclined to agree to this:
there is no shortened working agreement, they work exactly the hours in the UK time zone that they are expected to work. As on probation they will be required to check in and check out with you regularly: on starting, on going and returning to lunch and in the evening.

Aditionally you will be checking in with them, video on and no blurred background, randomly.

Or fire them, and rehire when they come back?

I agree this is the right thing to do. It’s an absolutely wild pisstake and if they are going to pisstake this early on, they are going to continue pisstaking.

I would also record that insufficient notice was given for this absence, whether it was to be paid or unpaid or whatever.

what a fucking nightmare employee

and definitely restart probation.

had only read OP (my bad)

Having seen your update, @estrogone , i think you are probably taking best route.

(disclaimer: i started a new job at the beginning of the month, i made it clear from the start that i would not accept the role if my week's pre-booked holiday - also in May - would not be approved. Or i could start on 1st June. Luckily for me, they really want me so accepted my vacation and all is good)

This is a young person, so you need to be very clear that their behaviour is not acceptable, and that they must not lie (or must be upfront) about pre-booked things during any future interview processes. Point out the additional costs of finding a temp replacement and ask them if they think that is acceptable. Ask them also how they had planned to work their hours in their time-zone while being with family. That is not realistic and you need to let them know that it was never ever going to work out like that and they need to focus on their job before anything like this. This kind of privelige is earned after putting in the hard yards and showing they are good and reliable.

The very cheek of it!

Rule of thumb, don't book holidays until it has been approved. Unless this is a standout employee who will go far I think you will be taking on a liability.

If you are feeling generous say they can take it unpaid leave, explain the holiday approval process point forward and extend the probation. This covers your back, should not wind up your current employees too much (don't want to set a precedence here) and see what happens.

This kind of privelige is earned after putting in the hard yards and showing they are good and reliable.

And even then, there may be legal/security/tax reasons why it can never be permitted, and which an employee may not be aware of.

Working while on holiday in the same country is one thing. Working while on holiday in a different country is a different matter.

Hmm. I don't think you've decided the right thing OP. I saw that you think your employee messed up, but imagine the resentment it will cause amongst your other employees. Aside from risking CF behaviour from that person in the future.

We had a new starter (Muslim) in my previous job who asked for 2 weeks off over Ramadan. He was told that the maximum number of people were already off because of that, so no. He called in sick, then didn't last long after that.

Honestly, I would let her go altogether. You'll have to train a temp, so you might as well train someone who is serious about having a job. This person isn't taking her work or your business seriously. That's extra important given you are a small business. She had no reservations about landing you in the shit. She thought you'd sigh and say "OK dear, you can work all night in a foreign country with a completely different time zone when there'll be no supervision - even though you're on probation - and you can go out on trips with your family and friends in your spare time. No worries, enjoy yourself!" No bloody way. She hasn't got the right attitude. Having the right skills is one thing, but you can teach someone that. You can't teach them to have a good attitude to your business.

She hasn't even completed her probationary period and is already taking the piss - four weeks! Let her go.

I would say this is completely unacceptable and probably unachievable to work your full time hours whilst on “holiday” I think this is taking advantage of a system that promotes flexibility with wfh ….. there not at home there in another country!
and another thing I would be concerned about as a manager is how my team would react to this , if you allow one person you would have to allow everyone the opportunity. It’s unfair as I imagine they wouldn’t be contactable with the difference in time zones . It would be a flat out no to working and if still on probation you could either terminate contract or allow unpaid leave . But either way this is a very cheeky brazen request that I wouldn’t even consider

If they are nice worker, let them go, and re-employ them once they come back or put them on a waiting list to be re-employed

"Since you cannot perform your duties while not present , and it is inconsistent with company policy that applies to everyone else, it is unpaid leave and your probation will be extended".

Unless their need to go home is urgent because a family member has been told they have weeks to live, or something similar, then they need to be sacked! If this is their level of entitlement already then they’ll always be a CF!

I haven’t rtft so this may have already been mentioned but in the UK there are tax implications for the company if any employee is working remotely overseas in a country where the company does not have an office and is not paying tax in that country (short periods of time are ok but this employees proposal would be over).

Suggest you check what the tax authority rules are for your country as you want to ensure any future policy you put in is compliant and maybe point that out to the employee as part of letting them go.

I can’t find any reference to this up the thread - apologies if I have missed something.

If the job includes any kind of personal data (customers, clients etc) you should be very cautious. GDPR applies all over Europe and a few other places, but Thailand is not one of them. Allowing remote working from Thailand with personal data means that the company may not be complying with GDPR, because personal data could be compromised.

There may be exceptions on compassionate grounds to the tax rules I’m not sure but that isn’t the case here

Get rid now. Thousands of good young people out there ready to graft unlike this bell end

A sensible solution OP, however I would ensure that they don't accrue any more annual leave entitlement whilst they are on the unpaid leave element of their holiday.

Don't forget to set up payroll in the country they are going to so you can meet your tax obligations

The other thing this young person needs to learn is when you choose to live and work far away, your trips to your home country may have to be shorter to suit your work. I am not saying this without any knowledge as DH, DS and I did a two week round trip to New Zealand to visit relatives. Was it a very long flight for a relatively short stay - well yes but the length of visit was dictated by our annual leave entitlement.

Keep this one on and they’ll be booking annual month long trips home. After all they had it agreed once.

I'd let them go on unpaid leave but read them the riot act and extend probation by 3 months. Also, you need an overseas working policy. Where I used to work, working in EU was okay but outside of EU needed approval by IT to ensure suitable data protection policies and VPN etc could be put in place.

They have just failed probabtion.

You need to start the recruitment process.

I would terminate her.

If you allow her to take unpaid leave you’ll be setting a precedent. She’d know that she can take the piss and you’d suck it up. Except at that point she’d be permanent and difficult to get rid of.

Consider the training you’ve given her sunk cost and move on.

However, I also feel that as an employer/boss you need to toughen up and be less accommodating. Give the devil an inch et cetera…