AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

As for interrupting probation please take legal advice (laws changing next year) and you don’t want all this to tip into accrued rights.

You are creating precedent here that you choose not to follow policy in this case and all
employees should be allowed to take month long unpaid leave when suits them.

Think about all the consequences- not just the facts you’ve been presented with.

How is it leave if they still plan on working?!?

This.

I work for a LA and people are allowed to work from abroad in exceptional circumstances, but only in EU countries due to data protection regulations. Exceptional Circumstances might be, for example, going to stay with a very I'll aren't in France, but only if there are no caring responsibilities involved.

TBH I'd probably be inclined to let them resign. If they're taking the piss in their first 3 months probation then it will only get worse. If you refuse to authorise the leave and they go anyway, then that would be gross misconduct.

Me too.

@estrogone you are NOT being unreasonable. I'm shocked the voting isn't 100%.

They definitely won't be able to work full nights after holidaying all day. And what kind of quality of work will they be doing?

Also, will client confidentiality be compromised given they might be depending on local WiFi, or in Internet cafes etc?

But mainly, what kind of person, as a new employee, books a month's holiday without asking first? When they have only accrued 5 days?

Depending on the time and cost of the recruitment process, and how many good candidates you had when you selected this one, I would be considering termination on the grounds that booking a month's holiday without preapproval violates company rules and therefore their probation.

yes exactly- or it will build resentment as to why this person gets the special treatment. I've seen it before when management only had the balls to say no to the staff who were not bolshy about it, but caved when faced with someone more assertive. It punishes those who are working honestly and within the rules.

This.

That all sounds very reasonable but bear in mind that this may be an annual occurrence.

I'd sack them.
I wouldn't want someone so grossly irresponsible (and possibly a liar as well) working for me.

I’ve worked for my employer (a global organisation) for 14 years - this would not be permitted even for me without prior approval on the count of a) working outside of my legal domain b) taking more than 2 weeks’ consecutive leave and c) change in shift pattern.

A long time ago when I was 17 I wanted to go to Australia for my 18th birthday as my boyfriend was on a 6 month visa there and I missed him - young love and all that

I got permission from my Manager BEFORE I booked my flights

I’m sorry but if I knew at 17 you had to get permission for a months leave, at 25 they are literally taking the piss

Ex UK HR, either no and if you go you’re contract is terminated or yes but it’s unpaid and probation extended for the same amount of time

If they are going tho their home country, if you allow it this time, it will become a frequent event as there will always be something happening at home. You’ve said they are customer facing so the time difference does not work

Unless you were aware of this trip at interview/job offer you do not have to grant it.
Tell them they must take it as leave a mixture of holiday accrued and the rest unpaid, then say probation will be extended. If they're not happy then you must give them their notice.
Also say the unpaid leave is exceptional circumstances too and will not be granted for 'holidays' in future it's really for emergencies/caring etc).
Do not allow them to work abroad unless its for a business reason - this will set a precedent for another trip.

She is being the ultimate CF. Her gracious offer to work through the vast time zone difference is utterly ridiculous. It would mean that she had to work all through the night when it’s office hours in the UK and sleep all day. Is she going to do this on her month long trip which I’m guessing is the Australia and not travel and socialise? She’s taking you for a fool. And remember she’ll be badly jet lagged and unproductive for four days when she returns. Call her bluff and I reckon she’ll resign.

Is this their first job in the big wide world?!

Is this their first job in the big wide world?!

With your update you’ve been more than fair. Let’s hope they accept your offer. I’d be very careful though in case your colleagues hear about the unpaid leave and want similar treatment.

As a pp said she showed this to her 18 year old who told her they were massively taking the piss so it seems first job they’d know what’s acceptable and not.

Do you actually want this person working for you long term? I certainly wouldn't. I would hire someone else to do their job, and thank them for their service.

Agree with this. A client facing role is not compatible with overseas remote working in a different time zone, even assuming your systems allow it. Stop trying to facilitate their oversight. Four weeks is over and above the norm of a single period of annual leave and the request usually needs more than a month’s notice regardless of how long an employee has been there. Do you have a leave policy? Their options are to cancel, reschedule or resign, failure to do so is misconduct.

This is how I feel too. I'm quite surprised by this thread.

But then, as a manager I really don't care where they are as long as the job is done.

We have somebody about to go abroad and work, because leave overlapped and she offered this as a solution.

I can't see when the trip is actually booked for That would make a difference

It sounds like you haven’t been clear in your expectations from the start but also they haven’t been up front.

At the end of the day how much do you want to keep them as an employee? Have they demonstrated any other red flag behaviour so far or are they otherwise an exemplary employee?

If you really want to keep them then advise they will need to take the leave as unpaid and their probation will resume when they return, I wouldn’t allow them to take company IT abroad for security reasons and they won’t be able to concentrate on work when their travel companions will be out having fun/sleeping.

If you don’t want to keep them advise the leave is denied and they will need to be in the office for most of the time to prove they haven’t taken company IT abroad. They will probably resign rather than lose the money for the trip - and you will have to go through the recruitment process again (unless you have reserve candidates from the previous trawl).

Offering flexibility to a long standing member of staff with a good track record is hugely different from being railroaded into a situation by someone on the team for less than 6 months. Lots of evidence of not following procedures and trying to force OP into a corner.

it's quite different with established members of staff. And of course theres a huge difference if asking first rather than presenting the trip as a fait accompli

I imagine they were a long term employee and also discussed it with you before booking!

Someone not in probation and who confirms the arrangements BEFORE booking is a different story.