AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

@estrogone Do you have no policy around booking leave and approval prior to booking? I cannot see how you can allow this. Don’t you have rules in your workplace? Surely this is a warning?

Lots of posts and good points to consider. Having slept on it, I think what has happened is, is that this leave was booked prior to joining and they were too scared to say so.

Looking back on the interview notes, I can see I did actually ask if they had plans to go back home any time soon and they said no.

Our policy relating to wfh is firm - no working from home during training/probation (6 months) but doesn't reference overseas travel (this will be fixed asap).

Our leave policy is clear x number of days notice required for leave of up to x days with longer notice for longer leave periods.

I think this person has massively fucked up, but that is not my problem.

I am going to say they can go on unpaid leave - with their probation period to restart from when they return for another 6 months. I am going recruit a temp with a handover for cover and if this person works out, well....

I think that’s a very sensible decision.

Hopefully they won’t kick up a fuss about it being unpaid. But if they do, it tells you all you need to know about the type of employee they’ll be going forwards.

In my last job I did a lot on the recruitment side and was surprised by the number of applicants who’d never had a job. I much preferred the applicants who had been working in a supermarket in their teens or something like that.

i am not in the uk but another European country, we got a huge amount of applicants from Asia (some applying directly from Asia but most had come over to do a masters degree) who had done a huge amount of internships but no real jobs. The problem with internships is that it’s hard to know whether the person really gained strong work experience or if it was more you turn up and look around the office and put it on your cv. I think they’d have learnt ‘how to work’ a lot more in jobs at maccies/supermarkets etc than these internships

Good resolution op

aside from hiring a temp for 4 weeks! If you have had to invest quite a bit of time and energy in to training the employee going on leave for 4 weeks then seems a bit pointless to go to effort and expense of getting in someone for 4 weeks. Plus the recruitment process itself!

Temp may be much better!

I agree. OP Is it the usual policy of your company for people to work while they’re on holiday?

Good compromise, OP. You might want to consider a meeting with all your other staff to explain the situation and your decision as well as outlining possible outcomes.

@BillieWiper I have a member of staff currently working from Crete - found herself a last minute break, needed some time off, asked if she could work mornings and have the afternoons off so she didn't have to use all her AL. I said yes: I know my staff and she's a hard worker and it'll get done. It'd also be very obvious if it didn't. Not every workplace is that restrictive - obviously there are lots of roles where the security of your connection or having a private place to work or whatever would be required but for us, I'm happy for her to be working from the hotel veranda in the sunshine as long as the work gets done!

Presumably the employee is hoping to have a month overseas 'working' and getting paid and then be able to use his/her accrued annual leave to go on holiday later that year as well?

I don't know what level of supervision they currently need but in person is far better for dealing with any issues. I can't imagine anyone doing great work after travelling to somewhere with a large time difference and working through the night to 5am and catching up with family/ friends during the daytime... I could get away with less sleep in my 20s but going that for 4 weeks - no way!

@estrogone You surely have rules around honesty from candidates and employees! Too scared? Really? Too manipulative I’d say.

I also assume you aren’t in accounts. No pay to the employee doesn’t cover temp costs. Well nowhere I’ve worked anyway. Temps cost more because of fees incurred AND the time it takes to get one and instruct them takes you away from what you should be doing. The salary you save doesn’t cover this. In most places of work, lying about your circumstances would result in a disciplinary interview. You are a pushover. Of course working from home doesn’t just mean “home” as in permanent residence! It means not in the office! Everyone else knows they can be more or less anywhere as long as they are working. If you want it to be “home” as in residence, say so but employees won’t like it.

I would say no and terminate if they go.

And what if they decide to leave (in that reset 6mth probation) when they come back?

Honestly, I'd sack them off. By your own admission, this person has broken more than one set of rules.

Do this. If you give in on this, they will come back for more

If you allow them this leave, you are setting the precedent going forwards. All the staff will expect it to be extended to them.

This seems like a sensible balance if they are otherwise good /it's a tricky post to fill

I would be making future expectations around leave very clear though

As a line manager this is exactly what I would do along with a possible written warning. If they are young this could be an important lesson they remember for their working life.

Wherever I’ve worked you are not allowed
to take any leave within your probation period and then after that no more than 10 consecutive days and management approval is needed. I’d bin them off. Who knows what they’ll do next. Surely juniors are ten a penny?

I agree, get rid of them now before they pass their probation or (God forbid) are there two years are have employment protections.

Yes, you really can “sack them just for asking”.

I think that is more than fair.

I would struggle to trust this person moving forwards as s/he has been disingenuous about presumably pre booked leave OR has book significant leave without getting time off first AND is presenting an entirely unworkable solution (working overnight) which is in contravention of your WFH policy in any case.

i would say it’s been nice knowing you, enjoy your break, bye.

I would bite the bullet now and tell them they can’t have the leave at all and stay with the company. Otherwise it creates friction with other employees. You may have other staff members who would also like to take more annual leave unpaid, by sanctioning this you are going to have to be open to future requests which it would be unfair to say no to reliable employees who haven’t demonstrated themselves to be CFs in the first few weeks of employment.

Absolutely not!! Take it as holiday or unpaid leave . That is taking the utter piss .

Insane.

No assessment of tax impacts, health and safety while working, will insurance cover this, death in service benefits - do they pay out if working over seas, data security and data transfer agreements with the country with which they work??

End probation now for clear lack of wit.

If you were really really generous - unpaid leave and probation extension

I think he’s full CF he didn’t declare this trip when accepting the job, he can’t now say oh it’s booked can I work on my trip. Additionally worth considering (although I wouldn’t consider it would be just no) I know in my job you need dispensation to take a device abroad because there’s security risks if the devise is lost or seized of connected to WiFi abroad opening it to risks.

Unless he’s travelling somewhere you already have offices the data risks alone would be a fat no.