AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

[estrogone]

We have a junior in our office who’s only been with us about three months and is still on probation, where the expectation is mostly office-based work. They briefly mentioned in passing at one point that they might travel overseas, but there was never any proper discussion or approval before the trip was booked.

They’ve now come back and advised the trip is already booked and confirmed for nearly a month overseas, in a time zone 10 hours away. They proposed a range of adjusted working arrangements, including shortened hours and overnight work, so they can continue working remotely while away.

I haven’t approved the shortened hours or alternative arrangements and have asked them to demonstrate how they realistically intend to maintain service levels and cope with working nights while effectively on holiday overseas.

I am a lot WTAF to four weeks of leave for someone who has only been with the business a matter of months and is still in probation.

AIBU to think this is request is out of order?

That's nonsense. Holiday / working remotely needs to be signed off. There are procedures. If the employee didn't realise that, it's entirely on them.

As well as the potential tax implications for the employee the country they are going to may not permit visitors working without appropriate visas. In addition taking the Company onshore in a foreign country may well be a breach of regs for the Company itself and could well create huge issues for them depending on their ownership/tax structure. IMO they would have to take unpaid leave, not be permitted to work for the Company during the period they are away and have probation extended. You may well also run the risk of them deciding to continue travelling and not come back. If you feel that’s all ok then sit them down and explain everything to them clearly. If not then just tell them that there won’t be a job to come back to ensuring first of all you won’t be doing anything that could constitute an unfair/constructive dismissal claim.

A lot depends on what the job is-and obviously you can't give all the details we'd need to make an informed decision.
But most workers do expect flexibility now, and most won't work for organisations with dated views. Those who came to the workplace after 2020 say they find it weird their parents used to actually travel in daily, so depending on your service, you will find it almost impossible to retain decent staff. Before anyone accuses me of bias, I can't wfh in my job-I'm just saying that it's a fact many younger workers put flexibility above pay and progression, if they're in a job where it's possible.

I’d get rid of them now , this is a massive red flag

Well they’ve been there a couple of months and think this is acceptable and think they can be on holiday all day and work a full day through the night so they are not showing themselves to be that good a worker. Maybe they didn’t realise if this is their first job but ot does suggest difficulties going forward

To be fair this is true. DH doesn’t hire anyone who’s not had a job before for reasons like this. Even if it’s a couple of years at maccies while you do your degree they tend to come out equipped and with an understanding of the world of work.

I would want to sort something if I really liked them, and I would feel bad if they lost money - but that’s probably why I don’t do much hiring and firing 😂.

Give them a month off without pay a d extend their probation. Or decline.

It's pretty normal for employers to honour holidays that are already booked when new employees start. It's generally something that gets sorted out during the recruitment process and Id expect the employer to make their position clear at that point.

If that was the case it would be agreed in the recruitment process. But I cannot imagine a sane employer who would agree a month long 'work from another country' stint while still in a probation period.

Up to a point, yes - except that was when they expected to go right ahead without any consequences

Now that there are - and if the "holiday" remark wasn't in writing - the story could easily change, along with an insistence that OP "must have misunderstood"

Fortunately, being very new, there shouldn't be any issues with simply getting rid - unless visiting family in the middle east means a racial aspect could be brought to bear, in which case good luck with that

At the very least I’d be extending their probation period by the month they’re away

But what blows my mind is they’re proposing shortened hours - for the same pay?!!!

I think this person needs a bit of a lesson in what working for your salary means …

Disagree. Its the company's responsibility to induct your people properly so that tgey are fully aware of procedures.

Cultural is all well and good but you have to look at your employees who quite rightly will think these colleagues have special treatment in being allowed to do this. There was an ex boss of mine a director who was allowed to do this, work early and late and get afternoons off, but his wife was Slovakian and they were on holiday there.

They’ll expect the same month off wfh 10 hours away every year, because, it’s to see family isn’t it?

This.

And the behaviour - booking a month away on the assumption that the proposed arrangements would be approved - needs to be raised in the probation meeting as a first red card, and reason for the probation to be extended for at least a month (if not longer).

The employee needs to know that this is not appropriate professional behaviour. And if repeated, could lead to disciplinary action, all the way up to dismissal.

yes, but OP has said it wasn’t booked beforehand, or mentioned as a ‘might’ until they’d joined.

It sets the tone
just decline it they can’t just demand what holidays they want

It is because they're 25 that they're so entitled to ask for this and because they're 25 that you absolutely have to say no. They cannot be allowed to think this is OK. Not only does this entitled brat need putting into their place for their own sake but you also need to think about the impact on others. If you are even vaguely flexible on this, you are opening the door for all of your other staff to claim they're working when they're very clearly just on holiday.

Give them a choice - don't go or take it unpaid or resign (and hope they do the latter!). Extend their probation too or let them go. If they're showing this level of cheeky fuckery already, imagine the liberties they will take once they are no longer under probation.

I wouldn’t accommodate this. He’s clearly showing unsuitability for the role and will be a nightmare to manage. He’s in probation so I’d just terminate.

Surely they just tell them that the leave isn't approved and if they aren't at work it will be considered gross misconduct and they will be fired. Start preparing a possible replacement. They are entitled and likely to flake out of the job anyway.

If you give them it as unpaid leave, they will assume they can get extra holiday every year like this. I would dearly love to buy more holidays or salary sacrifice for them, so even by doing unpaid leave you are setting a dangerous precedent.
If you do decide to keep them on - and frankly I would get rid - I would make them take it from their annual leave entitlement, meaning they can’t repeat the experience in a few months.

How would losing the job affect their visa? Have they factored this in to their plans?

Not that this should affect your decision, but it might be something they need to consider.

Unbelievable , entitled behaviour . Anyone knows you need leave approved. Anything over 2 weeks in my team needs approval as well. Can’t believe the cheek of some people.

Absolutely.

I can't believe you would even entertain the idea of this, it's madness. Seriously - they'll spend the day seeing friends and family, and then stay up all night working? There's absolutely no way that's going to happen.

And if you are the boss of the company, I would also think carefully about the effect that allowing this will have on your other employees. If I was them, I would be furious.