AIBU to think a toddler should be allowed to sit while healthy adults stand?

[Thegoldenoriole]

Tldr: should toddlers stand while healthy adults sit on trains?

On the tube today, I boarded holding our 2yo DD by the hand, DH had pushchair and baby in the sling. It’s busy (South Kensington museums on a Sunday afternoon) so we didn’t get a seat. No drama, I manoeuvred DD down the carriage towards a pole and tell her to hold on to that and my hand and we travel one stop reasonably well wedged in. DH is half way down the carriage with a lot of people between us.

At the next stop, the seat in front of us opened up so I helped DD to climb up. NB: it was one of the fold up seats designated for a wheelchair user if someone needs it. However, no wheelchair present and the other two fold up seats had healthy young adults sitting in them.
DD had just got settled when a man says, very loudly, “would you like that seat?” looking behind him but pointing at my 2yo. I say hang on, she’s sitting there, he says something like “she can stand up, it’s for disabled people” I said “well she can stand but she might fall over” and he got huffy and said his leg hurt. Totally coincidentally, I’ve currently got a mildly sprained knee so just blurted out “well I’ve got a sore leg too!” and he said “well why don’t you sit down then?” so I did and put DD on my lap and he stormed down the carriage saying he was just trying to offer a seat to a lady.
I would absolutely have moved DD if a wheelchair user had boarded, requiring the full length of the fold up seated area. But AIBU to think that a healthy adult should be asked to move from a seat before a young child?
Just to preempt the question “why not keep DD in the push chair?” we had taken her out to help us get down the steps and walked straight onto the train. I have no real problem with her standing, it was more that it felt very much as though he was deliberately picking on the toddler sitting down, especially given he did not ask either of the other adults on fold up seats to move. But he was so self-righteous I’ve been left wondering whether this is some etiquette I’ve never absorbed, despite living in London for 10 years before having DD!

People are being deliberately contrary here so they can call you "entitled".

Yes, in a perfect world you'd have strapped her back in at the bottom of the stairs, but actually having had children of that age at that tube stop I would have done EXACTLY the same as you, @Thegoldenoriole and just got on the tube as it arrived and moved her down to the safest position to stand.

He was being an arsehole for no reason, of course a 2 year old needs a seat. Of course you don't know if the others were "healthy", but probability is that they were just sat down. Definitely not you in the wrong here.

Yes I think there is a general etiquette that a small toddler should sit on adult lap on public transport not take up a seat. It’s perhaps slightly old fashioned but was an absolute thing when I was small and my dc were small. Perhaps stemming from small children not paying fare.
I’d have been worried about a 2 year old sitting alone on a flip down chair in case they fell they aren’t wedged in same way as normal seat. I’d think held on mums lap was safer.

I was born in 1990 and couldn’t tell you what I sat in, to be honest. But my MIL regularly jokes appalled that her kids were rolling around in a strapped-in carry cot seat. That was late 80s.

I would never expect an elderly person to give up their seat for a child but it’s an utterly false comparison because I’ve never been on a tube carriage where every single seat has either a toddler or an old person in it. There’s always someone else healthy enough to give up a seat and it shouldn’t be the child.

This is probably extremely controversial (and a different issues, but one that has been mentioned on here a lot already) but I also don’t see why a person in a wheelchair trying to get on the bus should take priority over an occupied pram already traveling - especially if the pram has a newborn in a carrycot and therefore can’t be folded. Why should the mum have to get off rather than the wheelchair user wait for the next bus? Both are equally in need of transport.

(obviously empty buggies should be folded if they can be)

busy tube is so dangerous for little kids to stand

my daughter has been bashed with bags and nearly stood on as people dont see her - so yeah seats for little ones is safer for sure

you cant carry them either its super dangerous youd fall or get bashed

He was not being an arsehole. He asked for a seat due to his leg. It was a disabled seat, he had every right to ask for it. Yes Op us being entitled .

I don’t think you’ve read the OP because that’s not what happened. He didn’t ask someone to give up his seat so he could sit down with his bad leg. He specifically asked the toddler to give up their seat for someone else to make a point, then mentioned his bad leg to justify his behaviour.

@Tshirtking You've mis-read. He was asking someone if they wanted a seat and only when challenged did he decide he had a bad leg.

If he'd actually got a bad leg, perhaps him saying "excuse me, I've a bad leg could I sit down" might have been an idea.

He was deliberately being an arsehole to make a point.

Because it was the disabled who battled for many years to get wheelchair spaces on buses. Parents didn't. It's just a lucky coincidence that buggys can now go on buses unfolded due to the fight of the disabled . Maybe parents should now fight for more buggy spots instead of using the spaces that the disabled fought for and they certainly should be moving buggys for wheelchairs. Plan before using buses, get a pushchair you can fold , you carnt fold wheelchairs

Yes, totally agree. Very young kids should have a seat over a healthy adult. When older children are already sitting then I don’t think they need to get up for any other healthy adult just for the sake of it.

Once he said he had a bad leg she should have removed the child. Hes probably sick to the back teeth of kids sitting in disabled seats when vulnerable adults have to stand every day. Yes he probably was a making a point with good reason esp when there was a pushchair available

@Tshirtking Why? He didn't want it, he wanted some random off-screen woman to sit in it! Even if he was sick to the back teeth, doesn't stop him being polite and civilised?

Why would beside the buggy not be a safe space to stand? Op deliberately moved (or wobbled, as she phrased it) down the carriage (several metres away from her husband), rather than put the child in the buggy.
She didn’t do that for safety reasons, don’t be daft.

I have to sit down due to a disability, I carnt stand for long periods. If this continued to happen to me on buses I would probably say something similar. He was looking out for someone more vulnerable, and then when he mentioned his leg it should have been a no brainer to the OP. She had a pushchair which was taking space and using a seat. OP wasn't being polite or civilised .

If someone wants the seat the child needs to vacate it. That’s how I was brought up.

It’s very unlikely that there were no healthy able bodied people on that train, it goes without saying that people with young children, the elderly, disabled and pregnant women should be sitting before healthy able bodied people. It’s just common decency, depressing that there are people who think otherwise. The only exception I will say is someone sitting in a seat you have reserved on a train, that is absolutely not on, although I would consider giving up my seat in extenuating circumstances e.g disabled and had to make an emergency journey

It’s all about the money isn’t though in many people’s minds plus their is a loathing towards children among many within this society sadly. I’ve purposely paid for reserved seats on trains for my under 5 to guarantee them. Glad I don’t have to travel by public transport with our children much

For me, a seat on a crowded tube I would expect mum to sit with the child on her lap.

What this is about it seems to me is whether a child has a right to a seat all by themselves.

Not always. If there say were two seats spare. I would not expect mum to sit in one and toddler in the other. I would expect toddler to sit on mums lap and another person have the other seat.

It is not about demeaning the existence of your child in any way. Just about being pragmatic in society.

I also do think younger older children, healthy adults should get up for the elderly or disabled. And willingly do so.

@KilkennyCats I'd not want my toddler holding onto a buggy that wasn't fixed to anything except Dad holding it with a baby in a sling. Those trains stop abruptly and the area around the doors are always the busiest and people won't see a toddler stood holding a buggy. The spaces between the seats are much safer to stand in.

Likewise, if OP had stopped to wrestle a two year old back into the buggy while people were getting on the tube, that would have been problematic and "entitled" as well. Absolutely if the space cleared out a bit and we could get back to Dad and the buggy easily then I'd have done that, but I'd have done exactly what OP did in this scenario.

@Tshirtking per the OP there is no mention of the person needing a seat for a particular reason. And even if he did need a seat, it would still be more reasonable and polite to ask her if her toddler could give up the seat. He was really rude here.

The toddler had their very own seat available in the form of the pushchair. Taking up a second seat is what's unreasonable. Less so if an adult is sharing it with the toddler. Collectively you were taking up a chunk more train than necessary.

i would put the toddler on my lap

I have dreadful arthritis in both knees so can't stand for more than a few minutes. I can't walk more than a few metres either but not always in a wheelchair. A child doesn't pay full fair so should only get a seat if an adult does not need it. A child sitting on your lap is fine.

How long do you think it takes to lift a child and plop them into a buggy?
Far less than wobbling down a busy carriage.

shouldnt buggies be folded?

@KilkennyCats Do you currently have a two year old? Or have you had one? Yes, you plop them in and if they don't want to be in then they struggle out of it and slide down. Repeat until you have managed to strap them in one-handed while holding them in place.