AIBU to think a toddler should be allowed to sit while healthy adults stand?

[Thegoldenoriole]

Tldr: should toddlers stand while healthy adults sit on trains?

On the tube today, I boarded holding our 2yo DD by the hand, DH had pushchair and baby in the sling. It’s busy (South Kensington museums on a Sunday afternoon) so we didn’t get a seat. No drama, I manoeuvred DD down the carriage towards a pole and tell her to hold on to that and my hand and we travel one stop reasonably well wedged in. DH is half way down the carriage with a lot of people between us.

At the next stop, the seat in front of us opened up so I helped DD to climb up. NB: it was one of the fold up seats designated for a wheelchair user if someone needs it. However, no wheelchair present and the other two fold up seats had healthy young adults sitting in them.
DD had just got settled when a man says, very loudly, “would you like that seat?” looking behind him but pointing at my 2yo. I say hang on, she’s sitting there, he says something like “she can stand up, it’s for disabled people” I said “well she can stand but she might fall over” and he got huffy and said his leg hurt. Totally coincidentally, I’ve currently got a mildly sprained knee so just blurted out “well I’ve got a sore leg too!” and he said “well why don’t you sit down then?” so I did and put DD on my lap and he stormed down the carriage saying he was just trying to offer a seat to a lady.
I would absolutely have moved DD if a wheelchair user had boarded, requiring the full length of the fold up seated area. But AIBU to think that a healthy adult should be asked to move from a seat before a young child?
Just to preempt the question “why not keep DD in the push chair?” we had taken her out to help us get down the steps and walked straight onto the train. I have no real problem with her standing, it was more that it felt very much as though he was deliberately picking on the toddler sitting down, especially given he did not ask either of the other adults on fold up seats to move. But he was so self-righteous I’ve been left wondering whether this is some etiquette I’ve never absorbed, despite living in London for 10 years before having DD!

The man sounds like he was a bit rude about it but technically he was right. Those seats are priority seats for disabled and elderly passengers, and not all disabilities are visible. I notice the OP was somewhat vague over whether the man actually needed the seat? I've had plantar fasciitis which isn't a disability per se but it certainly made standing up a lot harder than usual (when not injured, I stand on tubes by default).

I wish I’d left out the info about DH and the pushchair

Why when this is the most relevant part of the story.

Your DD took up a seat when she had her own seat to sit in on the pushchair.

You said the standing area wasn’t busy, so you didn’t need to sit down and clear any space but then there was no reason why your DH couldn’t have brought the pushchair over to you.

It was a priority seat, which makes a big difference and the man offered it to someone who he felt needed it.

You sound really entitled.
All you had to do was strap DD into her pushchair if you were worried about her falling over.
If that meant missing the tube, then so be it. They probably run every 30mins or so anyway.

Its fine for a toddler to sit in a seat but they should not have their own seat if it’s busy - they either sit on your lap or they stand.

I still can’t fathom why you didn’t just stay next to DH and either put DD in the pushchair or told her to hold on.

If there were no seats what would you have done with your DD?

Should have been the buggy or your lap. No choices given neither.

Give my mum a break about what?

She expects young kids to get up for her rather than the many other healthy young adults on the bus. Doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

If there were no seats what would you have done with your DD?

Indeed, and also - what if the man actually did have an invisible disability that meant he needed the seat? Which may actually have been the case - people with invisible disabilities tend to be a bit conscious about what others think and asking for seats etc.

Given that no one actually talks to anyone on the tube willingly, I tend to assume if someone's asked for a seat there's a good reason for it.

Those priority seats are for anyone who needs them, they don't specify elderly or disabilities. The wheelchair space is different and anyone sat there would need to vacate for a wheelchair user.

yanbu at all. a 2 year old cannot safely stand on a moving tube train. they can't reach the handrails properly and if the train brakes suddenly they go absolutely flying. it's a massive safety hazard.
that man was just a classic busybody trying to play the white knight for some random woman, but he was too much of a coward to ask the actual healthy adults sitting next to you to move. so he picked on the easiest target he could find which was a mother and a toddler.
you were completely right. those fold up seats are free for anyone to use unless a wheelchair user actually boards the train. sitting down yourself with your dd on your lap was the perfect malicious compliance though! try not to give him another thought, he just embarrassed himself because his weird little power trip didn't work out and he ended up looking like an idiot.

This is a real cultural thing.
In my family children are expected to stand for adults, and in my DPs it would be that adults would be expected to stand for children

It plays out across lots of different things that I always find interesting in our families

You are asking someone to give up their seat. You expect an old person, a pregnant person, a person who is tired out to stand and watch your 2 Yr old sit. Therefore taking their seat.

If there say were two seats spare. I would not expect mum to sit in one and toddler in the other. I would expect toddler to sit on mums lap and another person have the other seat

Exactly this!

If it was a very busy tube and no seats left and there was a mum and toddler taking up 2 seats, then that would be wrong and selfish because the toddler can sit on mums lap.

This is the same thing but instead of 2 seats there is just 1.

It was also a priority seat which means you can use it unless someone else needs it more.

OP chose not to put DD in the pushchair before getting on the tube.
Therefore she was ok with her standing if there were no seats available.

But OP took DD on without knowing there would be any free seats - therefore OP deemed it acceptable for her toddler to stand.

If OP felt it was dangerous for her DD to stand she would have strapped her in the pushchair before getting on the tube (or even once on it) but she didn’t.

to be fair to the op, she literally said in her post that they had to take the toddler out of the pushchair just to get down the steps. anyone who has ever tried to strap a wriggling 2yo back into a buggy on a packed, moving tube carriage knows it's basically impossible and takes up way more space.
wedging them between your legs and a pole for one stop is just a calculated risk you sometimes have to take when navigating london with kids. but the second a seat became available, she put her child in it. why wouldn't she?
regardless of how they got on the train, it doesn't change the fact that the bloke was totally out of order. if he actually cared about the disabled seats being free, he would have asked the two healthy adults sitting right next to them to move. he didn't. he just wanted a power trip and thought a mum and a toddler were an easy target.

I have been travelling by tube since my very early years. We were allowed to sit in a seat as long as the train was fairly empty. If it started getting busy, I (the youngest one) had to sit on my mother's lap while my siblings, who were 3 years older and 5 years older had to stand and hold on to the poles tightly. None of us ever fell. This was common practice for London children.

I am infuriated by parents who let all their children sit in a seat each and not make them (if small enough) at least share with each other or sit on a parent's lap to free up seats for adults on crowded/full trains. One day I was travelling on a half empty tube in a priority seat (for genuine medical reasons, it is safer for me to get off the tube from there and still be able to hold on all the way as I exit the train). A woman got on with her toddler in a large buggy. She parked it in the space by the exit doors on my side, then her son wanted to get out and sit in a seat. There was a seat next to me and, further down the carriage some individual and some adjoining seats free. The mother asked me to move to another bit of the carriage so she and her son could sit next to each other next to the buggy and was really annoyed when I declined. In any case, the boy did sit next to me and she chose to stand and glower. Then, it turned out, they were getting off only 2 stations later. The other passengers obviously felt she had been quite cheeky too.

I don't know if it is because I look quite old to my fellow commuters these days but I think Londoners are, on the whole, very kind and helpful on the tube. I see, on a daily basis, them helping tourists with their journey queries and offering seats to those that need them, so no, we are not a strange feral load of nutters any more than anyone else around the country, thank you.

The man was of an era I suspect where mum would have sat down with toddler in her lap. Had she had done this I doubt the man would have said a word.

Disabled places are often used by non disabled people. Happens on buses with pushchairs etc. Car parking. We need to do a bit better in this regard generally speaking.

But you said it’s not safe for a toddler to stand on a train - so why did OP take that risk.

This was the only seat that was free and it was highly likely that no seat would have been free the entire time.

And why didn’t OP sit her on her lap if it’s that dangerous to stand.

If it’s so dangerous to stand or difficult to strap a toddler in a pushchair on a moving tram, then OP should have strapped her in the pushchair BEFORE going on to the tube.
But OP was happy with DD standing.

And DD was in a priority seat and so therefore should be the one to move.
OP cannot tell if the other adults needed them as some disabilities are not obvious.

So you are forgetting the fact that the toddler had a seat, the buggy. And OP was acting entitled using a seat she didn't need.

It was okay apparently because the child was ‘grumpy’

how exactly is OP supposed to sit the toddler on her lap when OP herself is standing up? 😂

yes, OP took a calculated risk for one stop because that’s just the reality of using the tube with a toddler and a buggy. south ken on a sunday afternoon is absolutely rammed, sometimes you just have to get on the train when the doors open rather than faffing about on a crowded platform trying to force a toddler back into a pushchair while hundreds of people try to get past you.
but just because you accept a less-than-ideal, slightly risky situation for 3 minutes doesn't mean you shouldn't upgrade to a safer one the literal second a seat becomes available.

as for the invisible disabilities... sure, the other adults might have had them. but the bloke doing the policing didn't know that either! he didn't politely ask the group who was most able to stand. he just saw a 2yo and thought 'easy target'.
priority seats aren't just for wheelchair users. they are for anyone who needs them - including pregnant women, people with injuries, and yes, small children who cannot physically reach the handrails to keep themselves upright. the man didn't even want the seat for himself initially, he was just being a busybody trying to enforce a rule he didn't even fully understand, and threw a tantrum when OP called his bluff.

It is safer who children to sit rather than stand as they aren't as strong and if holding a pole and the train stopped suddenly they are much more likely to be injured than an adult

The calculated risk didn’t pay off though did it?

Yes that’s why they have pushchairs. OP explained why the child wasn’t in her chair but it’s a bit rich to take up the accessible seating AND the space the pushchair takes up.

@Tshirtking come on, she's moved away from the buggy and it's tricky to get toddlers back into a buggy quickly especially in front of the doors on a tube.

There are seats on public transport and people are allowed to use them. Or, are you saying that no-one, if completely able-bodied, should sit down on a train in case someone comes along who needs the seat? You're extrapolating wildly here. If this man needed a seat, I cannot believe there's no one in the carriage that would have been able to let him have one if he'd just asked!

It did? She got on the tube, got a seat after a bit and then I'd say won the mini spat with the man?

Absolutely this. Any child still small enough to sit on a lap should do so in any crowded public transport situation - unless the parent is heavily pregnant!

If a train suddenly gets broken, I think everyone has a greater problem that just being able to hold onto a pole.**