AIBU to think a toddler should be allowed to sit while healthy adults stand?

[Thegoldenoriole]

Tldr: should toddlers stand while healthy adults sit on trains?

On the tube today, I boarded holding our 2yo DD by the hand, DH had pushchair and baby in the sling. It’s busy (South Kensington museums on a Sunday afternoon) so we didn’t get a seat. No drama, I manoeuvred DD down the carriage towards a pole and tell her to hold on to that and my hand and we travel one stop reasonably well wedged in. DH is half way down the carriage with a lot of people between us.

At the next stop, the seat in front of us opened up so I helped DD to climb up. NB: it was one of the fold up seats designated for a wheelchair user if someone needs it. However, no wheelchair present and the other two fold up seats had healthy young adults sitting in them.
DD had just got settled when a man says, very loudly, “would you like that seat?” looking behind him but pointing at my 2yo. I say hang on, she’s sitting there, he says something like “she can stand up, it’s for disabled people” I said “well she can stand but she might fall over” and he got huffy and said his leg hurt. Totally coincidentally, I’ve currently got a mildly sprained knee so just blurted out “well I’ve got a sore leg too!” and he said “well why don’t you sit down then?” so I did and put DD on my lap and he stormed down the carriage saying he was just trying to offer a seat to a lady.
I would absolutely have moved DD if a wheelchair user had boarded, requiring the full length of the fold up seated area. But AIBU to think that a healthy adult should be asked to move from a seat before a young child?
Just to preempt the question “why not keep DD in the push chair?” we had taken her out to help us get down the steps and walked straight onto the train. I have no real problem with her standing, it was more that it felt very much as though he was deliberately picking on the toddler sitting down, especially given he did not ask either of the other adults on fold up seats to move. But he was so self-righteous I’ve been left wondering whether this is some etiquette I’ve never absorbed, despite living in London for 10 years before having DD!

Well, he had a bad leg, so no i think he was being totally reasonable to expect the seat. Why was your own 'sore knee' only an issue after he challenged ypur dd?

Why did you bother asking Iin AIBU when you are arguing with anyone who has dared to suggest that you were in the wrong in any way?

Then I’d suggest you’ve either forgotten about the wriggling out stage, or you’ve had 3 unusual children to have never done it.

And don’t worry it’s not “beyond me” to strap them in, but stood in the main vestibule of a tube in front of the doors, isn’t the place to do that, or any other personal messing about. It’s selfish and as we are so worried about, it inconveniences the passengers behind you trying to board.

And for the OP by the time she could get back there was an VACANT seat her child was sat nicely in until random man interfered! And it was the random man that only decided he had a bad leg when challenged.

Then I’d suggest you’ve either forgotten about the wriggling out stage, or you’ve had 3 unusual children to have never done it.

And don’t worry it’s not “beyond me” to strap them in, but stood in the main vestibule of a tube in front of the doors, isn’t the place to do that, or any other personal messing about. It’s selfish and as we are so worried about, it inconveniences the passengers behind you trying to board.

And for the OP by the time she could get back there was an VACANT seat her child was sat nicely in until random man interfered! And it was the random man that only decided he had a bad leg when challenged.

Then I’d suggest you’ve either forgotten about the wriggling out stage, or you’ve had 3 unusual children to have never done it.

And don’t worry it’s not “beyond me” to strap them in, but stood in the main vestibule of a tube in front of the doors, isn’t the place to do that, or any other personal messing about. It’s selfish and as we are so worried about, it inconveniences the passengers behind you trying to board.

And for the OP by the time she could get back there was an VACANT seat her child was sat nicely in until random man interfered! And it was the random man that only decided he had a bad leg when challenged.

Then I’d suggest you’ve either forgotten about the wriggling out stage, or you’ve had 3 unusual children to have never done it.

And don’t worry it’s not “beyond me” to strap them in, but stood in the main vestibule of a tube in front of the doors, isn’t the place to do that, or any other personal messing about. It’s selfish and as we are so worried about, it inconveniences the passengers behind you trying to board.

And for the OP by the time she could get back there was an VACANT seat her child was sat nicely in until random man interfered! And it was the random man that only decided he had a bad leg when challenged.

And it was the random man that only decided he had a bad leg when challenged.

I don’t believe that anyone should be challenged when requesting a disabled seat. No one is required to provide information on why they need it.

Those seats are designated for people with disabilities (or babes in arms or pregnant on particular seats) and it can be embarrassing for some people to have to ask for a seat anyway, without people judging whether they are disabled enough to need the seat!

it’s also not ok to judge whether other people might have a disability or not. If you know that you/ your daughter did not have a disability then as soon as someone asked about the seat, she should have been removed.

The fact that you then countered with the fact that you had a sore knee too, is a bit unpleasant to me. You don’t know his private health information, and that was uncalled for. We don’t get to judge other people that say they need the disabled seat.

Maybe he was gruff because he always has to ask for the disabled seat and he was fed up of entitled parents? Maybe the reason he moved away muttering was because he was embarrassed and didn’t want to sit after your response to him, even though he needed it?

He may have offered the chair to others to try to make a point. We don’t know. Some people can find it very uncomfortable asking for a disabled space and can ask in ways that may not make sense to us as a result. The point is that how he asked or what he said wasn’t important as it was a disability space that he was intimating he wanted.

I have no problem with the idea that it might be safer for your DD to be sat down. But the second someone requested the disability chair, she should have left it as you knew she wasn’t disabled. You don’t know if the other people sitting were disabled or not, but you knew that she wasn’t.

given the man had a problem requiring the seat, you’re being hugely inappropriate.

I'll say just one more thing - there is a picture of a mother with a small child on priority seat as a guideline whobsould be using it amongst pregnant woman and disabled. You had all the right to use it and other 2 young ones didn't need to, unless nobody else needed a seat. So no, you don't need to apologise here. I understand how packed the tubes are and standing, holding the poll and not to fall is hard for a child, even for an adult sometimes. And funny enough, I don't see many elderly or disabled people on a tube when it's packed as they avoid this kind of transport. As far as I can saw in my nearly 11 years living in London, they mostly use buses, as tubes are very inconvenient for them (long walk deeply underground). Plenty of stations don't have lifts and I can not remember I've ever seen anyone with a wchc on a tube, ever! Or even with a stick! So yes, don't feel bad at all.

It’s actually for those carrying babies. A 2 year old is not a baby.
There was a pushchair seat available for that child regardless.

Your comments about seeing people with sticks etc is awful. You need to educated yourself on disabilities and hidden disabilities.

Regardless of what anyone says, OP will refuse to believe anything she did might not be appropriate, and ignorant comments like this are the reason so many people with disabilities struggle unnecessarily. It’s so sad.

I really don’t understand the posters saying put toddler on OP’s lap. OP wasn’t sat down, nor was DH or baby. So as a family of 4 they took up 1 seat. OP then did sit down and put toddler on her lap- still taking up 1 seat, so what is the difference?

And to answer the question, no I don’t think adults are more important or more worthy of a seat than children. I think everyone is entitled to a seat on a first come first serve basis, and the toddler got there first. If a person with a hidden disability wants a seat to be given up for them then I think the onus is on them to make it obvious with a lanyard or badge, same as with pregnant women.

But you haven’t paid for his seat

But this seat was marked as a disabled seat. So it is really only first come first served for disabled people.
A disabled person isn’t asking a general seat be given up for them, it is a disabled seat that is for them. Sure, if not used then someone without disabilities can use. But the second someone hints they need it, the person needs to move as it’s the disabled persons chair.

I think that requiring people with disabilities to wear something to broadcast their disability is very wrong.

I use the tube every day. Most people don't care who sits on the seats on crowded trains. Occasionally people offer their seat if it is obviously needed by someone pregnant or elderly but that is about as far as it goes. I wouldn't overthink it, otherwise you will end up stressed and angry like that man.

Pushchair or lap
At least you know what most people think is reasonable now

You do come across as rather entitled though- presuming that the 70% who voted that you were unreasonable only did so because of their poor comprehension skills!

So do l - especially when the tube is packed - they are only knee height!
Yanbu OP he was a dick.

I'm not going to wear a lanyard for my disability thank you very much. My disability is none of your business. If I need a seat which I often do I ask. Normal people do give up the seat, no one has ever refused me. OP is being unreasonable.

She doesn't get a choice, do you really let a 2 year old dictate you?

Toddlers on the knee is sensible.

From the comments, people seem to have voted unreasonable for the following reasons:

1. They have focussed on whether someone with a disability should have a seat while a 2yo stood. I’ve asked whether, out of two adults and a child in priority seats, it is reasonable to direct the demand (not request) at the 2yo rather than make a general request to the row and see whether anyone might be better able to stand than a toddler who learnt to walk in the last year. These people ignored the question.
2. They think the child should have been in the pushchair. I fully accept that would have prevented the scenario arising and have said multiple times I will aim to do this next time. However, I’ve asked what was reasonable in the scenario as I set it out. These people ignored the question.
3. They think 2yo should have been in my lap. They can’t explain why this was necessary or intrinsic to good manners given 2yo was sitting sensibly and my standing wasn’t inconveniencing anyone, other than that seeing this situation might “distract and agitate” some adults. They think the toddler was dictating the situation rather than doing exactly as she had been told. These people have made unfounded assumptions and can’t back them up.
4. They think we were taking up two seats. These people can’t read.
5. They think, on principle, that children should stand while adults sit. It has nothing to do with the adult’s ability, so the two other adults sitting in the priority seats had more right to those seats than the toddler. Fair enough. These people have correctly interpreted the scenario and the question and answered according to their view of what’s reasonable. Hallelujah.

While I disagree with those in group 5, I am genuinely interested in what proportion of people have that way of thinking - hence the poll. Unfortunately, based on the comments, the poll mostly reflects group 2 and 3, with a hefty chunk of group 1. Probably my fault for providing too much context and expecting people to read and correctly interpret multiple paragraphs of information. Ah well.

OP it's simple. There wasn't enough seats for everyone. You had a seat for your child, the pushchair. Only the completely ignorant wouid then take a second seat leaving the first, pushchair empty when others had to stand. And to make matters worse you took up a disabled seat.

Parking the man’s rudeness in ordering out the toddler for another person without a word to me, in this situation where you have a toddler and two young and healthy-looking adults sat in the priority seats, would you have made a general request to the row, or would you have assumed the adults had hidden disabilities and the toddler didn’t, and specifically asked the toddler to move?

Agree with this. There were not enough seats to go around. The toddler had a toddler-sized seat available for them alone, unusable by an adult. Rather than use this the toddler took up an adult-sized seat.

I also think having less people standing is generally more pleasant for all so despite OP's insistance there was ample space (other than seats!) I'm sure nobody would have batted an eyelid if she'd sat with toddler on knee. Issue was overall seat under occupancy imo.

OP you come across as if you know best so it's mystifying why you started an AIBU but you think you definitely aren't BU.

A 2 year old in a seat on their own on a busy tube isn't always a good idea anyway as they can get up and down and wriggle around. A man wanted to use the disabled seat. You could have put your child in its buggy.

Also as has been pointed out, your toddler travelled for free. You had options, sit them on your lap, sensible. Put them in their buggy, which is what most people would do, or travel at a quieter time.

Parking the man’s rudeness in ordering out the toddler for another person without a word to me, in this situation where you have a toddler and two young and healthy-looking adults sat in the priority seats, would you have made a general request to the row, or would you have assumed the adults had hidden disabilities and the toddler didn’t, and specifically asked the toddler to move?
Is it possible that he assumed given the kid's age that it would have had a buggy?