AIBU to think a toddler should be allowed to sit while healthy adults stand?

[Thegoldenoriole]

Tldr: should toddlers stand while healthy adults sit on trains?

On the tube today, I boarded holding our 2yo DD by the hand, DH had pushchair and baby in the sling. It’s busy (South Kensington museums on a Sunday afternoon) so we didn’t get a seat. No drama, I manoeuvred DD down the carriage towards a pole and tell her to hold on to that and my hand and we travel one stop reasonably well wedged in. DH is half way down the carriage with a lot of people between us.

At the next stop, the seat in front of us opened up so I helped DD to climb up. NB: it was one of the fold up seats designated for a wheelchair user if someone needs it. However, no wheelchair present and the other two fold up seats had healthy young adults sitting in them.
DD had just got settled when a man says, very loudly, “would you like that seat?” looking behind him but pointing at my 2yo. I say hang on, she’s sitting there, he says something like “she can stand up, it’s for disabled people” I said “well she can stand but she might fall over” and he got huffy and said his leg hurt. Totally coincidentally, I’ve currently got a mildly sprained knee so just blurted out “well I’ve got a sore leg too!” and he said “well why don’t you sit down then?” so I did and put DD on my lap and he stormed down the carriage saying he was just trying to offer a seat to a lady.
I would absolutely have moved DD if a wheelchair user had boarded, requiring the full length of the fold up seated area. But AIBU to think that a healthy adult should be asked to move from a seat before a young child?
Just to preempt the question “why not keep DD in the push chair?” we had taken her out to help us get down the steps and walked straight onto the train. I have no real problem with her standing, it was more that it felt very much as though he was deliberately picking on the toddler sitting down, especially given he did not ask either of the other adults on fold up seats to move. But he was so self-righteous I’ve been left wondering whether this is some etiquette I’ve never absorbed, despite living in London for 10 years before having DD!

No, you don’t have to navigate steps with her in the buggy at all - talk about cutting your nose off…

Just put her in the buggy once you get on the train rather than wobbling off down the carriage to find a random seat?! I’m starting to think you’re taking the piss now. You had a seat for her (the pushchair) and yet you are adamant that walking away some distance was safer and that you were incapable of making decisions. Righttt

Why can’t you just put her in it after you get on? You seem to really not want that as an option…

Mos children that age have a pushchair of some kind so maybe that was the man’s issue.

God almighty! Maybe you shouldn’t be out and about in crowded places with small children if putting them in a buggy when you arrive on the tube platform is really beyond your wit.
How do you navigate life at all?

I’m starting to think this whole thread was having us on. Surely someone can’t be this obtuse?!

Same here.

Alright Stroppy-drawers @KilkennyCats.

I'd have managed by doing exactly as the OP did! Because it's not "beyond my wit" to assess a situation and take the action that I thinks best. There's no rule saying children have to be strapped into pushchairs on the tube. Even if it slightly inconveniences you.

It sounds like you've neither had children or been on a tube train to be honest so if it's alright with you, I'll continue to consider your opinion irrelevant.

Just basic manners she should have stood. Know you don’t like most people here saying that but you don’t seem to accept you may be wrong.

But you could strap them into the buggy once you are down the stairs before boarding the train. Even if you missed one train another soon comes along ( especially in rush hour)

I have taken children, multiple on the tube. The 2 year old was always strapped in the buggy even if they protested. It's basic parenting. You think it's ok to inconvience others , dont be surprised if they do the same to you with your attitude by

Actually you don’t have to have had a child to know this was a shit situation - you just have to have travelled on packed public transport at any point in your life

I was never bothered. I'm using public transport only, bus daily, tube occasionally. Since I had my now 4 year old I didn't give a damn. There are designated seats for people who have less abilities to stand- which includes parents, especially mothers with young children. They are on the pictures. So if I have to, I will even ask someone to move, obviously not an elderly person or someone with a child or pregnant. But a young healthy person can sit somewhere else. Needless to say - I will be the first person offering my seat if someone will come up who will need it, which I'm teaching my little one too. There are not plenty of people raised to respect others these days.

Indeed. But your title literally did make that assumption. That's why so many people have wanted to educate you

If a tube is that busy I’d always put a lid on my lap if we could get a seat. That removes two people from the crush and is a more efficient use of space. Or put them back in the buggy, if you can’t fold it down.

I’d have thought that you wouldn’t need to have had a child to realise that someone specifically wanting a two year old to stand for adults was probably a grumpy old git…

Where was his age stated? I missed that.

He may have wanted a seat and he may have thought that a buggy and an accessible seat is too much space for one small child, even if that child is grumpy. I don’t blame him for being pissed off.

Well good for you. Your child could have been put in her chair. You chose not to put her in her chair where she would be safe. Do you not think that a 2 yo would be better there rather than you taking up two spaces for her ?

YANBU the man was a twat

Wow this took on a life of its own!

Firstly, for total clarity, the question wasn’t whether a 2yo should stand for a sick person. It was whether out of three apparently healthy people in the priority seats, the 2yo should be the one made to move while the adults remain seated. Neither myself nor the man had any non-superficial info about the health of the other two adults. However, he chose to specifically target the 2yo, rather than make a general enquiry which would have given the opportunity for the other adults to stand, if able.

I do not think DD was entitled to a seat. I absolutely would have moved her for anyone who had asked if someone could stand, if it became clear neither adult in the other priority seats were budging. What actually happened is the man took it upon himself to assume 2yo didn’t need the seat and loudly offered it to someone else without a word to me (he only mentioned his own leg afterwards - making his motivation even more suspect). I think that’s objectively rude and he would never have behaved like that towards an adult - he deliberately targeted the toddler. I don’t assume people can stand just because you can’t see a reason why not - I remember first trimester of pregnancy all too well! He, on other hand, made an assumption about the 2yo’s ability to stand compared to the adults in the other two priority seats. Both he and a decent chunk of responders seem to think children are intrinsically less worthy of being treated with respect and compassion than adults - often, it seems, because they weren’t treated with respect and compassion when they were children. Fair enough, I fundamentally disagree with perpetuating that cycle, but at least we have clarity on the point.

LOL at the idea I’m too soft or DD dictates what happens. I’ve been a primary school teacher for 12 years and was a nanny for four years before that. I’m a fairly strict parent. I enforce appropriate boundaries all day long. Part of managing any child’s behaviour is recognising when they are at their limit and mitigating for that. DD was doing exactly as she was told, sitting calmly and quietly on the seat. I knew she was tired and grumpy and wouldn’t want to sit on my lap, so I stood. The extra square foot of floor space I took up by standing in front of rather than sitting under DD caused no one any issues, other than the mere sight of an adult standing while a child sits apparently enraging a substantial subset of the population. At no point were we taking up two seats. Once in my lap, she got fussy and wriggly and I spent the rest of the journey grimly holding on while she tried to escape. It was less safe for her and far more annoying for everyone else. With hindsight, I wish I’d let her sit back on the seat by herself the moment the man stalked away. For what it’s worth, I’ve taken numerous school trips on the tube and literally never had such an unpleasant interaction.

I do agree that strapping the toddler into the buggy before boarding would have been the safest option, and is what we will aim for next time. However, the man did not know we had a pushchair as it was with DH down the carriage, so his attitude was nothing to do with that. People questioning why we moved away from the buggy down the carriage to grab a pole as fast as possible have clearly forgotten (or never known) the chaos of a doorway on the tube. Wrestling a resistant 2yo into the buggy in the doorway would have taken longer and inconvenienced far more people than us both getting out of the way down the carriage to find a pole to hang on to. DH might have folded the pushchair - it’s a light and compact one - but frankly that was on DH. I couldn’t see him at that point (and it’s notable that I don’t think a single person has checked whether DH did fold the pushchair...). I was questioning the reasonableness of my actions when confronted by a man demanding the toddler stand while ignoring the adults sitting in the priority area. People saying she should have been strapped in to the pushchair have a valid point, but it’s like I’ve asked for directions to an address and the response has been “well I wouldn’t start here!” Like… sure, valid point for next time, but not actually an answer to the question.

I think I’ve addressed the theme of any other comments earlier in the thread so feel free to read through. Other than his age - mid 50s,
I would say.

Finally, many thanks for all the supportive comments - both your comprehension skills and your compassion towards small people are much appreciated! 💐

Not currently, but I’ve had three.
They absolutely went in the buggy when it was necessary for safety.

It feels like you won't have it that anyone else thinks you might have been out of order in any way. Sure you were annoyed with the man being needlessly rude. But the bit about your kid not being able to sit on your lap won't get much sympathy when you had a buggy you could have put them in.

Sorry if I missed it but why was the dh down the carriage with the buggy anyway.

It's a fact of life for parents that every one else isn't as smitten with our little ones as we are.

Despite your detailed post, the key fact that underpins this thread is the majority expectation that small children on public transport sit on the lap of their parent. Had you sat on the seat and put DD on your knee, it's highly unlikely the discourteous man in his 50s would have had any expectation that the two of you would have been the ones to move. A small child in a seat by themselves effectively has a flag in their hand displaying the message 'my parent is only thinking about us, not other passengers'.

In case it makes a difference, I was a small child in the 1960s, with parents who were sticklers about setting expectations for how we behaved in public and making certain thoae expectations were followed. As I have taught my DD, good manners may appear merely to be about pointless rules. They are actually about behaving in ways which make life more pleasant for those around you.

Genuine question then: how would having DD on my lap have made life more pleasant for those around us? Given that a) she was sitting sensibly b) I wasn’t taking up a second seat and c) me standing wasn’t inconveniencing anyone.

First, the rude man in his 50s would have had one fewer reason to be agitated,and may not have become agitated at all. Second, no-one around you would have had to be distracted wondering why a child who travels for free had a seat to themselves rather than following the generally accepted practice of sitting on their parent's knee.

What you should have done was put the child in the buggy and sit down yourself. I don’t think a child who could be in a pram should have a seat over an adult. Children should be on an adults knee. I would expect children to stand for adults but I’m old fashioned.

An adult might have been distracted!? So just to be clear, me taking preemptive steps to keep a tired 2yo calm and happy was out of line, and I should have been prioritising the inability of full grown adults to emotionally regulate themselves on seeing a toddler sitting sensibly on a seat?

I think we’re back to treating children as lesser beings than adults. Although with a new twist of also holding them to higher standards.