The Left have a become a snivelling self-righteous mob, busy bodying around, trying to shame others

[Northermcharn]

I read this quote and it encapsulates exactly how I feel

'I never thought I'd see the day when the Right became the cool ones giving the finger to the establishment, and the Left became the snivelling self-righteous ones going around shaming everybody'

AIBU to think this is what many people think these days? We didn't leave the left, the left left us.

*the quote is from John Lydon aka Johnny Rotten. He's deliberately provocative in lots of ways, but he meant this one. I fully expect some people to come on the thread to tell us all how he's a horror and said he likes Donald Trump. That would be them missing the point.. but.. Let Them..

Indeed - how would it go down if those of us to the left of Goebbels posted a thread title saying Right wingers are a load of Greggs pasty eating thickos or Telegraph reading rich qNazis desperate to keep hiding their cash overseas - this idea we are all out to ‘get them’ too - there are plenty of people well to the left who are extremely working class too but don’t go for the woke stuff at all . Lumping everyone a bit left leaning in as a vegan, woke, ban the car, obsessed about trans kind of left wing really isn’t the full picture, just as my cliche above isn’t a full picture of the right wing voter.

It is actually one of the most frustrating things ever. All I wanted was for a reform voter to tell me why they voted for reform. It really should be quite a simple answer, and should be easy to answer in a non-aggressive way.

I find that the abuse and hatred towards the left is complete and utter projection. Like I have said before you get arseholes on either end of the spectrum, but I am yet to meet a far right supporter who is able and willing to have a calm conversation with me about their views. I have had many discussions with people on the left without it resorting to childish arguing. This tells me that the right must be ashamed of their views, otherwise they wouldn't need to resort to a violent or aggressive communication style to distract from answering difficult questions.

My post was a long one, it was my own opinion, and it got jumped on by someone who replied in a very aggressive and confrontational manor, picking out the part that suited their rhetoric and ignoring 99% of what was said.

I completely agree with what you've said here:

Then the OP wrote the words 'Where have I insulted left wingers?', having started a thread titled 'the left have become a snivelling, self-righteous mob'.

Then updating it to add "busy bodying around, trying to shame others" 😶

Also - OPs answers to anyone who doesn't agree with her views have been rude, condescending and derogatory.. you don't need to outright call someone a "see you next Tuesday" for it to be insulting, insults can be very nuanced, and OP doesn't seem to realise that their passive aggression is palpable in their replies.

LOL blaming Miliband for Brexit made me chuckle a little bit!

Yes I have started to realise that no such thing as a sensible discussion or debate seems to exist with people with opposing views any more, which is a massive shame as it only adds to the divide and the hatred.

OP clearly set out to prove her silly quote right by baiting left leaning posters. As soon as anyone said anything remotely less than 'nice' she thought it was her big gotcha.
What the OP doesn't seem to have grasped is that if you are left leaning it's because you believe in certain values, principles and models for society, and no amount of name calling, belittling or stereotyping is going to suddenly result in a change of heart.
If people want to call expressions of concern about the lives of disadvantaged people 'snivelling' and putting forward counter arguments to racist rhetoric 'busybodying', wanting greater wealth equality 'jealousy', then they can crack on.
Its not changed my position even an inch. I don't hold my opinions to be 'cool'. I'm not a teenager. I hold them because I find the arguments in favour more compelling than those against.
And if those who feel differently want to change that, they need to seriously up their game and give me rationale, evidence and make an articulate case. Because the playground stuff is water off a ducks back.

What I hate about these arguments is that people like the OP genuinely believe you believe in things for their performative value, hence why they it's described by them as a way to look "cool". They are either judging everyone by their own standards or are seriously misunderstanding that some of us actually do 'think' about things, there isn't a separation of intellect and emotion, it is about being aware of the interconnectedness of things. IMO thinking like this is literally the opposite of Populism which Reform are capitalising on.

You'd have a good career in comedy
Seriously, if you want to present an argument then try not to mimic the behaviour of the people you're criticising
You probably ought to cut back on that coffee
Enjoy your Fake outrage

Op thinks she’s still in a playground in 1976. If those were your halcyon days op, that would make you in your 60s or close to. Time to grow up…

😂You are correct about one thing at least

Ahh I'm not lucky enough to have reached that grand age yet

What you haven't grasped, and what is fundamental to the whole post, is that I and many others, (including JL and JKR both of whom I have quoted here for that reason) Were left leaning. We have all stayed in the same place but the 'left' has gone awol, or some call it further left but if left is thinking men can be women, and not thinking about the needs of the working class people you purport(ed) to represent - then fck the left.

It is not surprising (at all) that you (and others on this thread) haven't realised this, it's a symptom more than anything. But hey - look where we are - Starmer is tanking because he has not met the needs and wants of the working classes (primarily). Again - it isn't because they've all turned into raging racists. It's because their needs and wishes have been ignored for too long.

You and others like you on this thread, can continue to try and belittle people as 'reform voters' or 'comedians' or .. uhm I forget.. but maybe it's time you and others started to listen instead.

Eta - I've only ever voted Lab (didn't vote last GE), or last locals, Ind. Next time, it's Conservative, 100%

I thought you started the comedian thing.

Strangely I’ve been left leaning all my adult life and I’m not remotely tempted by Reform. If you don’t think this government cares about ordinary people perhaps you missed the renters act - which has enraged landlords - and the new employee protections - which have angered employers.

What more do you want?

Nope.

I've been left leaning most of my adult life (until the last few years as above) and I am not remotely tempted by Reform either. But that doesn't mean I don't / can't understand people who are. And why they are.

@BIossomtoes and wrt your points, or questions - 2 words: Unintended consequences. But I think you'll need to think about that, do some research. It's clear you don't understand what they are.

Again with the stereotypes. I'm left wing, so its 'posters like you', now is it? When I've not said a word about Reform voters on this thread and I'm GC.
Of course left isn't thinking men can be women (check out the Communist Party manifesto if you doubt it) and not caring about the working class.
It frustrates me more than I can say that GI has been adopted by some left wing parties and therefore become 'a thing of the left'.
To me the prioritisation of a tiny group of men over the rights of women is the antithesis to what the left should be about.
However it would be ridiculous to decide on the basis of this one deviation from what I see as left wing values to turn to the right. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
As far as caring about the WC are concerned, what does that look like to you?
Because what I'm seeing at the moment is a right wing party with a bunch of policies that will make things worse for less advantaged people going round saying they are listening. But listening with very selective hearing, as the only thing they are interested in amplifying are immigration concerns.
Concerns about access to health, about low income, insufficient affordable housing, poor employment rights, rights for women are either ignored, blamed on immigration, or exacerbated with proposals to reduce rights, protections and services lower income people disproportionately depend upon.
Labour may not be performatively listening, but I'd take the renters rights act and enhanced employment protections over Reforms proposals any day when it comes to making a real difference to WC people.
(And I am WC, so by your reasoning, I should be listened to!)

Has the left wing left you behind, or have you become more right wing as you age? It is so well know that people drift to the right with age thay there's even a BBC bite size revision course on it!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zd9bd6f/revision/4

I've been on MN years and one of the funniest things for me is when the odd poster pipes up and tells @BIossomtoes to 'do some research' or that she 'doesn't understand' a political point.

It's like when some lacklustre comedian tries to take the mickey out of Bill Bailey or a 20 year old 'influencer' points out that Mary Berry has been 'doing Victoria sponge wrong' all these years.

@BIossomtoes has understood and forgotten more about politics than pretty much anyone else on here has ever known.

And yet they can still be wrong.

Yeah it’s really cool to be racist now! I love it. I don’t have to hide my racist views now. Thank you Reform!!

Haha - you think age necessarily equals wisdom. Cute.

Eta - it's clear they are bad ideas, but blossom thinks they prove a point. Tells me all i need to know about her understanding of economics. Still twas never labours strong point, nor that of its loyal supporters.

I think the higher correlation is wealth

It seems pretty obvious to me that better rental and employment rights benefit working people. If you think they don’t, perhaps you could explain why - and why landlords and employers are so furious about them.

Not intended as such, but not unforeseen.

If you increase renters' rights, then it's obvious some landlords will throw a wobbler. Some may even sell up, and then there's a question wrt whether that makes things better or worse for ordinary people (do rental prices increase, but sales prices fall, or something else)? The only definite thing is that people who rent have better protections.

You increase national insurance and of course that creates a burden on business. My direct experience is that that is overstated - my own business' main cost is staff (very roughly, 50%). The net effect roughly works out at about 1% of turnover or around 3% of profit. Though it's straight out of my pocket, I think additional rate tax payers paying a few grand extra a year is a price worth paying for a fairer society.

And so on and so forth (I could write you an essay on VAT on school fees, for example). The point is that, if an ordinary punter like me has a rough grasp of these considerations, then you can guarantee that goverment departments and ministerial advisors do too. It's the nature of the game - you pull one lever to try to fix things and it risks fcking up something else. That's why there are no easy answers to anything, and why the likes of Reform and the Greens - who peddle simple solutions to complex problems - are not imo serious people.

Of cousre, you understand all that @Northermcharn, because you're such a smart cookie. you just choose to ignore it.

Are you me!! It’s far easier to spout all day on immigration or some of the stuff from the opposite end of the political spectrum than have to actually ‘do it’ , whilst bearing in mind ‘all classes’ , business, budget and funds available - all on a GDP that’s down around7% post Brexit, and a load of people between 55 and 67 drawing down on pensions and paying zero in NI ( and little tax in plenty of cases too) -

this working class thing gets me too, who is defining this? Is it income based or profession based - is the local builder on £70 to £100k working class because he isn’t posh and gets his hands dirty whilst the junior teacher on £33k is middle class? Not all working class are poor and desparate and plenty of on paper middle classes are on similar or lower incomes and struggle too - there are some working class people for whom you could give the moon on a stick and it wouldn’t be enough , because ‘all ‘ they are hearing is the ‘we are fed up of immigrants’ ( and they don’t just mean those arriving on boats-they mean anyone even 2nd generation ones) - and in my personal opinion plenty of the far left pander to this ‘not listening to the working class’ - you can’t just keep putting up minimum wage forever or expand tax reductions more without it impacting across the board, apart from the immigration issue what is it they actually want .personally I would like to see some benefits for those paying a fair whack of tax like the free childcare hours coming in ‘regardless’ of income - and I’m a centre left voter - as it is people on what sounds like a high income can be worse off due to tax and lack of benefits than someone on considerably less and paying a lot less tax.

Labour have bought in some good things that do help the working class , the new rental rules, they are building more, including some council houses and more shared ownerships- renationalising rail, breakfast clubs, free hours from 9 months( started under Tory’s) quite a few others things still at legislation stage. You can’t only do so
much at a time, the country isn’t a bottomless pit.

One reason a lot of tradesmen/Reform types don’t like it is that as someone with a business myself it’s noticeable that HMRC are far more on the boil - and the old cash in hand brigade don’t like it.

I agree with Labour if they get tough on piss takers- ironically some on the right not keen on that too because whilst having right wing views on immigrants , plenty are piss takers themselves and contributing as little as they can and have been for years- and that’s all ends of the income spectrum.

We can all be wrong. I can still be amused by the exchange and the rude arrogance.

I have and I have no idea how old Blossomtoes is but I do know from reading her posts for years that she has wisdom.

More specifically the desire to keep that wealth to oneself.