Was I U to tell a doctor she’ll understand when she’s a mum?

[Calmondeck]

I usually hate when people say things like “you’ll only understand when…”, “you don’t know because you’ve never…” etc etc

But today I found myself telling a newly graduated doctor that she won’t understand until she’s a mother.

For context, a neighbour (aged 4) had a huge crash on their bike. Their helmet was dented from the impact and they had blood gushing from their forehead. There were no other adults around, just myself and my children, I attended to the child until his mother found him. At this point the child and I were covered in so much blood that both our shirts were soaked.

By coincidence the mother had a friend present, a newly graduated doctor, who told us proudly that she’s so used to seeing screaming children and overly anxious parents that she’s immune to it. She just walks into anxious rooms and “ignores the vibe”.

There was a pause, and I found myself saying she’ll understand if she ever becomes a mother.

She didn’t say anything in reply.

This has got under my skin. My child fought cancer for several years at an age where his doctors really relied on my husband and I to interpret his pain, translate toddler speak, spot symptoms etc. The team told us on day 1 of the diagnosis that no one knows the child better than the parents (they actually said mother but I chose to ignore this slightly patriarchal view) and they needed us to be vocal. My husband and I, who are pretty relaxed, originally thought “we’ll trust the professionals (ie the doctors)” but realised quickly that we really did need to point out things.

I see this neighbour almost daily, and will run into her doctor friend undoubtedly over the coming days (she is staying with them). Would it be unreasonable to tell her she needs to stop being immune to upset kids and their appropriately concerned parents?

Of course it is a sad situation. And there often lessons to learn.

But for every one situation like this, there are thousands where the oarents "knew" with the same absolute certainty there was a problem, some even more than the commenter here, and it was nothing serious at all.

That's the complicated part, figuring this out.

Selection bias makes people think they have abilities they don't, especially with stories they hear. Many parents will have had situations they blank out of memory and can't even recall where they genuinely though there was something wrong as certain as that commenter was and it was nothing, then later there is a situation where there was something wrong and it is serious. Of course all they will say is "they knew" and its terrible they weren't believed.

Christ on a bike, leave the poor woman alone.

She was in a stressful situation and she knows she was out of line - her very reasonable and measured post which you have quoted acknowledged that.

And did you miss the part where her own child has had cancer? Where's your empathy?

Unfortunately when it comes to paediatric cancer (or cancer in general, I imagine) it is far from an unusual situation.

My son is also permanently disabled due to medical professionals not acting quickly enough. In my son's case, he desperately needed surgery as the cancer had caused a bowel obstruction but the surgical registrar insisted he just had a tummy bug and he 'wasn't surgical'. Despite the fact that my son was very obviously vomiting up faeces, he still went on to claim that he didn't need surgery.

By the time it was finally agreed that he did need surgery, sepsis had set in, my son went into multi organ failure and had a 17 minute cardiac arrest.

Completely preventable and very nearly cost my son his life. He was also too unwell for chemotherapy due to how seriously unwell he was with septic shock which meant the cancer was surgically removed with the hope it didn't come back but it did come back 4 months later. Something else which was completely preventable.

It's quite telling that every single parent I have met who has had a child with cancer, no matter what type of cancer, it almost always starts with medical professionals not taking them seriously until it rapidly progresses to the point it can't be ignored or dismissed as just a tummy bug or a viral infection.

My God @Kirbert2 that's horrific.

As a member of the same unfortunate club, I agree. Though what drives me bonkers p is the way they repeatedly tell you that they take our instincts seriously, that we are the expert in our child etc, whilst simultaneously ignoring that anytime it counts.

My child ended up with meningitis as a complication of treatment. I'd been saying for several days that something was increasingly not right, and been fobbed off.

That wasn't the first or the last time, but its one that particularly sticks in my mind. It's hard to navigate, especially when there are going to be long-standing relationships with those professionals, but you also need to act in the best interests of your child.

I'm very sorry for what you and your son have been through.

Yet another post where the op thinks we will all agree and argue with anyone who doesn’t 🤣

You think she’ll only be a good doctor ‘if’ (not when) she has children? What a shitty and ignorant thing to say.

I don’t want an emotional doctor flapping around, I want a calm, rational doctor. And I couldn’t care less if they are parents.

Do not say anything else to her.

Hugely patronising. Can teachers not effectively teach if they haven’t got children either?

It was a bit of a weird and tone-deaf thing for her to say in the circumstances.

I think saying to any person (any woman?!) that they'll understand when they become a parent is at best patronising and annoying and at worst really upsetting. I went through fertility treatment and remarks like that could really send me spiralling. I have a daughter in medical school who has a genetic condition that means that conceiving and carrying a child is going to be difficult for her and is very unlikely to happen naturally. The thought of her patients/their parents dismissing her because of this is upsetting. (I know that's not what happened here.)

It don't think either of you behaved all that well to be honest. It sounds like a stressful situation though and none of us are perfect all the time.

I should also say that I can see why what she said triggered an angry response in you, given your own experiences. I'm sorry you've been through that and hope your child is well now.

I was tempted to say it to a few midwives but never did.

Would you tell a female oncologist that she won't understand testicular cancer till she grows balls?

She may have expressed herself very poorly, but it's probable that she was trying to make the point that Doctors do have to stay calm and look at the problem and not the yelling - as patients express their pain in all sorts of ways. I remember a (male) midwife telling me I 'couldn't' be as far along as I actually was because I wasn't yelling enough - luckily his colleague did a proper check a few minutes later!

By coincidence the mother had a friend present, a newly graduated doctor, who told us proudly that she’s so used to seeing screaming children and overly anxious parents that she’s immune to it. She just walks into anxious rooms and “ignores the vibe”.

I think it’s her job to stay calm and focus on her job.

I don’t think we need doctors to have a mothering attitude. They need to focus on doing their job well.

This Doctor needs to really work on her bedside manner. Do they teach that at Medical School?

Watch the TV docs/progs on Paramedics and Ambulance Workers. They seem to have great people skills. Are very reassuring and always seen to stay calm and be in control.

It's doctors like this one that could benefit for the empathy classes medical students will have as part of their training.

No she’s not. She’s got many years before any medical establishment, even just a GP will consider her a real doctor. She will be having a horrid time proving herself and having awful hours at the moment. They changed the title from junior doctor but they still get the same experience and the same pay. Thus the thoughtless comment.

I don’t want a doctor to weep and wail and be emotionally engaged with my child. I want a calm professional who knows her job, takes the appropriate action, and goes on to their next patient. Calling out not being a mother is insensitive and irrelevant, not to mention self-important.

You are most definitely not being unreasonable. Just because someone has qualified as a doctor does not in any way, shape or form make them a good doctor. I once saw a locum GP regarding abdominal pains. Instead of the usual rate your pain from 1-10 scenario he compared 10 as being the equivalent to my husband hitting me over the knees with a baseball bat!!!! I was astounded….totally unacceptable……no thought as to any possible domestic abuse background. I didn’t express my horror at the time but was sent a patient satisfaction survey soon after & told them exactly what I felt!

F1s are qualified doctors. Of course, they still have a lot of learning and training to do, but it is incorrect to state that they are not doctors.

EMPATHY. A soft skill developed over time by health care workers of all levels and degrees and only developed over time as they interact with patients across the lifespan.

WTAF have I just read? I must be doing parenting wrong then because I feel, and respond to emergency situations (my work involves working alongside people investigating plane crashes so about as emergency and emotional as you can get). Despite what one of my Neanderthal ex colleagues suggested when I was young and childfree - having my daughters did not make me “feel” more at scenes of crashes. I did my job the same way then as I do now - dispassionately and professional. After all who would want an air crash investigator losing it on a scene? Well, it’s the same for doctors.

there are some disgusting attitudes on here.

Why do you think that?

At least she had the grace not to reply that you would understand better when you were a doctor.

Boom!

Bit harsh.