to think it’s inconsiderate to leave a lifetime of clutter for your kids to deal with when you die?

[wirey]

My parents are in their 70s, both in good health, fully capable, still active. This isn’t about illness, frailty or anything like that.

They have a 5-bedroom house absolutely rammed with stuff. I’m talking decades of things such as old paperwork, clothes, random items, things they haven’t used in years (some of it honestly feels like it’s been there 30–40 years untouched).

I’ve gently raised it a few times and offered to help them sort through it. Not in a pushy way, just suggesting we could do a bit at a time. Every time the response is basically “you can deal with it when we’re gone.”

I find that really unfair. It’s not even about the physical effort (although that will be huge), it’s the emotional side too. Having to go through a whole house of someone else’s lifetime possessions while grieving is a lot. Plus trying to work out what’s important, what isn’t, what can be thrown away without guilt.
I get that it’s their house and their stuff, and they can live how they want. I’m not trying to control that. But equally, it feels like they’re knowingly leaving a massive job for someone else when they don’t have to.

I’m not expecting minimalism or a spotless house, just a bit of consideration in not leaving everything untouched for decades and then handing it over as a problem later.

AIBU to think that’s selfish?

I have reduced my own possessions by 75% as not to leave a mess behind for DH and my DC.

@seriousspicey267 but why does everyone assume that the parents are deliberately being "cruel" for wanting to keep their stuff around while they're still alive?

I find it cruel to make them think they're on deaths door, constantly, by badgering them about removing the stuff they collected over the years from their own home.

I know two people (mid 60s to mid 70s) who have put off dealing with clutter their whole life and are now beyond the point where they have the physical strength or mental energy to do anything about it. There is so much stuff that realistically, no-one will ever want.

The thought of their children having to sort it out is appalling. It seems very selfish to create a big chaotic mess and leave it to someone else to sort out.

In the end, as has been said, their children will just have to bite the bullet, get skips and be ruthless. But it doesn't seem to me unreasonable to expect adults to act like grown ups and take responsibility for the crap they have accumulated over a lifetime.

I agree with this. Whilst I think it's considerate to not leave immense piles of junk for your kids to deal with, I don't see why everybody over 70 should feel like they have to live their lives as though they're in a waiting room and just existing in a state of preparedness to hand their lives over to somebody else.

Lots of people live into their 90s or even to 100 or more; so why should people spend their last 20-30 years just being a 'placeholder' for another person/people?

It might be different if, say, we could all know that every single person dies on their 85th birthday without fail; but of course we don't.

But - you aren't going to get any more able to cope with it as you get older. The optimal time to downsize and dejunk is probably mid sixties to mid seventies, and if it doesn't happen then, it probably won't happen at all.

There are so many stories on the elderly parent's board of parents who refuse to face up to the fact that they are ageing, insist they will cope, live in vastly unsuitable houses or locations, then require huge amounts of support and rescuing from their adult children. Leaving your messy clutter for them to sort out is just the final act of assuming other people will take care of you.

I have an ambivalent relationship with this syndrome, as there has been something heroically bonkers about the levels of denial and optimism in the older generation in our family. All of them insisting they don't want to be a burden while making it incredibly hard to help them. It has been a privilege to support them in their final years but bloody hell it was hard!

I very much agree with this - of course older relatives should not be made to feel they are a burden but it actually seems rather patronising to assume that they can't handle discussion of this stuff. And what OP says about how scared many people seem to be about discussing death really resonates as well. So many posters have made this about money and inheritance but mortality is just the reality for all of us because we have no idea how long we have. Older people generally aren't working full time and so it's a practical time for them to work through the stuff they've accumulated over the years. It doesn't mean anyone's suggesting they're on the point of death.

As I said in an earlier post, I have done a lot of clearing of stuff for older relatives but I've also seen the flip side of that. I lost a very dear relative last year who led a very simple life and had pared down his stuff to almost nothing in the last few years of his life. He was so active out in the community until his final days and led a really rich life, always learning new stuff, always helping people out - I don't think it was a coincidence that he wasn't weighed down with loads of stuff from the past.

Yes.

Dealing with a house packed to the rafters after someone's death is horrendous, even if you do have a financial incentive from the inheritance being maximised.

But I think it's worse that the vast majority of these people won't suddenly both die in a car crash, but will expect their children to help them while they remain in their vastly unsuitable homes. Or will need the homes emptied for sale but still be furious if the damaged knitting machine isn't found a good home.

It's a bit like taking no precautions with your lifestyle and saying you'd rather die young than give up smoking or lose weight, when the reality is that you'll probably die younger, but also your last 10 years or so will be spent requiring a lot care. Again, provided by your children.

It's all very well saying the children can just not do it. But most people love and care for their parents, and won't want to see them struggling or injured. And there's not the money to get it all done by professionals in most families.

The reason it is not selfish (has been explained several times) is that no child is compelled to clear up their parents estate. It's something they choose to take on for themselves, not something they are forced to do.

If an estate is insolvent the child can simply walk away. In fact many solicitors will recommend this as a course of action depending on the circumstances.

If the estate is solvent then there is enough money in it to pay for it to be liquidated by service companies, and has been pointed out many large houses containing large amounts of stuff are worth considerable sums of money, so the amount of money the people who choose to clear it up receive is generally is proportional to the size of the house, so it is quite equitable in that respect.

So there isn't really any burden the child is forced to endure. They can choose to take on the job of liquidating the estate if it is of enough interest/benefit to them, or they can choose not to if they don't want to.

It's hard to understand why in this situation the parents behaviour can be considered as selfish, because they are not and cannot force(ing) anyone else to do anything as a result of their behaviour. It would only become selfish if the child was compelled to handle the liquidation of the estate.

What in my mind is selfish is to try to force someone to live a lifestyle you want, to make it easier for you to handle a situation you are not actually obliged to deal with anyway, and that you might get significant reward for !

Very well said @GasPanic

One of my siblings says we should sort their house before they die, I think that would be quite distressing for my mum in particular and we should not touch. It will be a hell of a job to sort but that's just part of life.

Older people generally aren't working full time and so it's a practical time for them to work through the stuff they've accumulated over the years.

I almost spat my tea onto my keyboard. Have you any idea how bloody patronising the sounds?

In the first 15 working days of May I am visiting hospitals 8 days as either the patient or the driver. Most of my friends the same age say they don't know how they ever worked they are too busy with being retired.

Regarding your delete and active friend, it is possible to live a full and active life without clearing your loft and your garage out.

On top of that, do you have any idea how much, for some people, it hurts to clear your life down? My husband has been steadily reducing mechanical, electrical and DiY stuff he knows he can never use again. I don't think it would be too far wrong to describe him as looking as if every time another lot gets Freecycled or tipped, a piece of his soul leaves with it.

I don’t doubt that you and many other people in their later years have very active, busy lives. I very much hope to be the same myself. But generally there is more flexibility in how time is spent - not always I agree but usually.

i’m also not suggesting it’s doesn’t hurt to clear one’s life out. I’m dreading it. But all the more reason not to leave it to my kids to sort out. I don’t want to burden them with that having done so much of it myself for other people.

I'm only late 30's, over the past few years I have had a change on how I view things like excessive possessions, I'm slowly getting rid of quite a lot of stuff that I've spent the former years accumulating and getting into various debts for, stuff i never really needed when you sit and reflect on it.

My children are only 3, so it's hopefully a long way off, but I don't ever want to be like all these boomers; almost relishing in making a horrible time for their children already; even worse by being incredibly selfish as to not make somewhat of an effort to organise and remove useless and unneeded things while they can, instead foisting it on to their children either misguidedly or in active spite.

Everything in our loft is in clear boxes labelled, things are organised into areas for certain things, Christmas, camping, etc. the garage is organised as best possible, things regularly get chucked if they haven't been used in years, the only physical things I hope to be left to pass on will be the silver and gold bullion I have.

Do you really think that countless older people up and down the land are deliberately hoarding piles and piles of stuff that they don't even want - and living with it - purely so that they can magnify their children's grief and burden after they die?

You seem to be using 'boomers' as a slur, rather than just as a neutral description of a specific generation; but not one of those people in that generation chose when to be born and thus to be the age they happen to have reached now - you can't and shouldn't try to blame old people for being old.

If, as your username maybe suggests, you're a keen motorcyclist, there would be people who would say that you are being selfish too - doing something that's very well-known to be risky whilst you still have very young children.

If you both died suddenly or unexpectedly, the Christmas stuff, camping gear and anything else would still be things that your children (hopefully adults by then) would need to get rid of - regardless of whether they're all in nicely-stacked labelled boxes or not. Or, if they prefer, they can engage house clearance professionals and not even have to look at or touch a single item.

There's a vast spectrum of belongings-based circumstances - varying from extreme minimalist to endless piles of floor-to-rafters junk. The vast majority of people will be somewhere in the middle.

It's inevitably going to leave your loved ones with a burden when you die - winding up somebody's life is complicated and time-consuming. Alternatively, they can out-source most of it if they wish/need to.

If somebody chooses to live as they like, with all their stuff, and then leave enough in their estate for house clearance if their family don't want to/can't do it themselves, is that really such a bad thing? Should they just live unhappily and minimally without their treasured possessions for possibly decades, preparing for death - just to make things easier for their children when the time comes, when the children don't even need to do any of it themselves anyway?

I don't see why everybody over 70 should feel like they have to live their lives as though they're in a waiting room and just existing in a state of preparedness to hand their lives over to somebody else.

And do you think it's reasonable to feel like this when someone suggests they remove some boxes of old carpet samples, receipts from the 1980s and broken cup handles?
Why does taking stuff to the skip after the age of 70 suddenly become a deathly hallow, rather than a typical Saturday?

They won't be doing it deliberately, there'll be people who are sick and hoard, there'll be people who have some knowledge of valuable things, and there'll be people who are keeping utter worthless tat in the hopes that it is worth something (when it isn't), and everything in between; but when questioned or asked to help out beforehand (especially if frustrations are occurring with trying to find things on a regular basis, like the OP) them coming across with a blasé "you can sort it out when I'm gone" attitude, it is and will always be selfish, no matter how you want to frame it, just passing the buck further down the line. And yes, some could see that as wilfully being spiteful as well as selfish depending on how stubborn the person is being. Someone said "you do you" earlier on, the OP is doing that, but ultimately when their parents do die, their lifetimes accumulations becomes the OP's too.

Yeah, I'm using boomers, because at the moment it's typically a boomer thing, a myriad of things they've spent their live accumulating through rampant consumerism and over consumption because they had good enough fortunes in good enough times to do so, in a few years time it will still be a problem but aimed at Gen X and millennials, and all the tat they've accumulated over the years because they thought they needed to, but as mentioned by someone earlier in the thread, they'll still have less accumulation than boomers due to the period and what was going on from when they grew up in.

And there's a monumental difference between things that will have been used on a semi-regular basis upto your death, like Christmas decorations and camping equipment, and examples of stuff that has already been listed on here, like suitcases full of gas and electric bills from 1985 and broken outdated appliances.

You sound very organised and it is amazing that you have out of choice got rid of 75% of your stuff.
I do wonder whether you are a person who loves/has a need to be in control, who maybe has anxiety about what you can't control? The scenario of your relative's clutter etc (that you have tried in vain to resolve) and their future demise, is very uncertain and something out of your control, an inevitable situation as it is always for us all, however much we might prefer to control it.

I'm sure you will cope. . when the time comes.
In the meantime, having tried, maybe 'let it go' now, and try to have a loving relationship with your parents, with acceptance . . . . a bonus for them and it will be for yourself too.

Wishing you peace and all the best, for now and in the future.

Not at all; but as has been discussed on this thread, there's a vast range of stuff and opinion; and a lot of people's possessions won't be as clear cut obvious junk as that.

Many people will love ornaments, trinkets, old (pre-digital) photos, cards they've received, old concert tickets, receipts from treasured purchases (granted probably not the weekly food shop) and other things that hold happy memories for them; whilst others will denounce it scathingly as junk, clutter, dust-gatherers and selfish to leave it for your children to have to clear. I agree, if they try to offload it on to you, then you have absolutely no obligation to keep it yourself in your own home.

On the plus side, even if they do leave a whole load of obvious tip stuff after they're gone, it's very easy to just load up the car/a hired van for the tip or get a skip. Surely where it's much more difficult is if it's half-decent stuff that could be donated/sold, albeit far too much of it for their individual needs. It's also no more work for you removing the stuff and chucking/tipping it after they've died than it would have been had they accepted your offer whilst they were still alive.

Interestingly, if somebody left their house to a charity, rather than to their children, and it was full of worthless junk, there's no way the charity would remotely turn their nose up at it and refuse to accept it: they'd be extremely grateful for it. It's just one phone call to make, one not-large bill to pay from the estate and that's all there is to it; yet when it was their loved one's home, people are up in arms about how terrible and selfish they were to leave them in the same position of having some work to do or easily outsource before receiving a likely massive amount of money.

@AWeeCupOfTeaAndAnIndividualFruitTrifle I agree with your last post to some extent. I think the issue is that most children will feel enough attachment to want to do the stuff justice, or at least find out what's in it, which is where the actual work and mental decision-making (and sheer volume of time! ) comes in. So if some boxes of actual rubbish can be whittled away now, creating space, surely that helps everyone?

Beware of relying on house clearance people, or charities that say they will come and collect.

When a friends parent passed away the house clearance people only wanted to take things they could sell on and leave the rest. They told them it was take everything or take nothing, that was what they were being paid for.

House clearance after bereavement is quite a big business now. We have a local removal firm who will clear the house directly into storage, allowing you to start the process of selling the house and then taking your time to sort through the possessions afterwards.

We are looking at this with my dad who's 82 and a lifelong "collector" of hobby stuff and things generally. We've started sounding him out on a few disposal routes such as swap meets for his model aeroplanes or specialist auctions for photography stuff.

I feel there's a tipping point where you finally resign yourself that you won't use/need things again like DIY equipment or outdoor pursuits gear. But by that time have passed the point where you have energy or ability to actually sort and sell/donate it. Likely with over optimistic idea of it's value. So it just sits there.

I do think it's a generational thing, people like my dad who grew up poor after WW2 often never learned to sell or give things away because they still feel they mustn't waste them or might need them. Even though he's now well off and has 5 of everything.

I don't need to wait until I get to my parents age.

I am preparing for my own death. I have got rid of a lot of my stuff and need to update a few things to make it easy for DC. I am doing the preparing to minimise the work for them.

Because children’s feelings are more important than copious amounts of unneeded, excessive paperwork and stuff. My parent has pushed everything possible over to being my problem the whole time I’ve been a sole carer. It is of no surprise therefore, that she found it funny that I had to climb through rat shit in the loft trying to descend ladders with endless boxes of crap. It’s cruel. And before you start - no there won’t be any inheritance for me to make my rat infested attic clear out ‘worthwhile’. I went home crying, shaking and in tears. My DM couldn’t have given a toss.

I don't have anxiety around what I cannot control. Things happen all the time that are unexpected and I deal with it. So of course I will cope.

I think seeing DH struggle with his DF's mess and clutter and my own DM bitterly complained how hard it was to clear her own DM's clutter has made me think why make it hard for others unnecessarily for others.

I do have a loving relationship with my parents. They struggle living in the clutter and their lives could be a lot easier but it is their choice. It is so hard to do anything or find anything in their home. I love coming back to my own home with cupboards not stuffed and no piles everywhere. I can easily find things. Funnily enough my parents like the way my home looks!

The OP's original proposal was about helping her parents where they expressed difficulty in finding things. Not about ditching every item they own (as some people seem to think).

One point that stands out for me - A lot of people are saying "just use a clearance firm". Depending on how bad the house is, and whether the person who's died was a real hoarder perhaps rather than just a bit of clutter, the clearance firms will require payment at the time of doing the work (regardless of who inherits what or when). For example, in the case of a situation my relatives were involved in, the clearance cost was £8000 (a hoarder house with vermin also) and it took 5 men from a clearance firm quite some time to clear the majority of it. The property could not be put on the market until it was emptied, and in fact it didn't sell until 12 months later, so funds weren't fully released for a long time. Therefore be aware that "hire house clearance people" means someone is having to pay out directly to the house clearance firm - and it may be a very long time until that person gets repaid out of any estate funds. A lot of people might find it hard to access money instantly in that way.