AIBU to be angry my sister will not keep our niece?

[Sharktale2020]

I am so upset and angry with my sister but unsure if I have the right to be.
Our niece(a well behaved 14 year old) was removed by social services from her dads and is not able to return back.
She has been staying at my sisters(her aunties)but my sister is adamant that when the next review is up she can no longer keep her.
The truth is she doesn't want to in case it impacts on her many holidays and going out(she is in her 40s)
When I challenged her on why she just comes up with the most ridiculous excuses.
She has a spare bedroom and the means to give her a goodish life(considering what the poor girl has been through)
I have offered to do all I can -get bunk beds and have her every weekend but she still refuses.
I have volunteered to have her at mine despite having no room(she would have to share while we either put up a petition wall causing minimal space and we would be over crowded)
While this is being done she would have to go into care as my sister is counting down the days until our nieces time is up at hers and won't keep her a minute longer.
She has 4 people in her house who all drive and could help out-no young children.
My husband and I have our nieces sister living with us-a hyper active 6 year old who we have had since birth.
We love her dearly but life is hard and we get no help.
The irony is my sister considers herself to be a Christian woman!
Maybe it's me and people don't help each other any more but I can't think of any one who would see their niece go into care when they could prevent it without it dramatically affecting their life.
She knows how hard it is for us as a family and she really doesn't care.
How can someone have such a cold heart?
And to top it all she has told my niece she will like being in care as she will have her own bedroom and get taken out!!
No mention that it's likely she will be shipped around and gave to change schools.
The poor girl is going through enough.

Highly unlikely as my area is somewhat niche but anyway

People have the right to make that judgement, having that right does not mean that people won't view them negatively for it.

If my parents had refused to take in a cousin because it may have disrupted my life, or it meant that I would have had to share a bedroom or have fewer holidays or whatever, and it had ended up with that cousin going into care, I would think very badly of them. Maybe not at the time, but certainly after I had children of my own.

It used to be acknowledged that it takes a village to raise a child, but society lost that view a long time ago. My nan was raised by her aunt after she was born out of wedlock and her mother couldn't care for her as an unmarried girl who worked in service - and thank goodness she did, rather than condemning her sister and niece to the workhouse or a life on the streets!

Adults should be responsible for themselves. For example, I will not provide care to my parents when they are elderly beyond the basics of helping look after finances, doing a bit of shopping etc.

If they need personal care daily care, it will need to come from carers or they will go into a retirement home. Similarly I have made it clear to my children that I would never expect them to do that for me under any circumstances. It is my job to raise them to independence, it is not and never will be their jobs to provide me with personal care.

But society does have a responsibility to children which means that sometimes inconvenience needs to be accepted and dealt with. If I had to take on my nieces and nephews would it inconvenience my children - yes. They would likely have to share a room and unless there was a robust financial provision in place, they would likely have to give up some of the things they have been used to. But they would understand that, as I have raised them to not be selfish!

You are correct, based purely on what we know from the OP, the sisters house probably isn't the best place for the niece to be which again is why I advised the OP to just focus on being there for her niece and to provide her with a home if it was feasible. But that doesn't mean people can't have an opinion of the sisters behaviour as the OP describes it!

The rest of my comment was aimed at people, particularly those with children, on this thread who were very much in the won't rather than can't category - posters who say they wouldn't do it simply because it would disrupt their own nuclear families, not because they are dealing with their own issues.
It demonstrates a distinct lack of empathy

I don’t see how you can talk about lack of empathy when you’re showing zero empathy for the family members it will affect. Of course most parents are going to put the needs of their own children ahead of those of their nieces and nephews.

Many years ago, I pushed for my grandparents to go into a home, because I could see my mother was on the verge of a breakdown from the stress of full-time care. I knew my grandmother hated the idea. I didn’t make that push likely, and I certainly didn’t do it because I didn’t care about her. I loved her very much. But I loved my mother more. There was no winner in the scenario, but I’d happily take anyone to task who suggested I “lacked empathy” because I put my mother first.

Society has a duty to the vulnerable, that includes the elderly who need that help. So many people would condemn your view of that as selfish and uncaring.

It would be inappropriate for your to judge your parents for not taking in a cousin. You weren't in their shoes having to make that call. You might not understand it but it wasn't your call to make.

Sometimes you have to make a hard decision and let people judge. Shrug it off because they are making assumptions and don't understand your position. People who judge aren't worth my time anyway.

Your mother deserved empathy too. You did her a favour allowing her to let go of the need to provide all the care.

Unfortunately some people have empathy for one party and none for the rest. I'm willing to bet if the aunt was an uncle, no-one would be casting judgement.

Society has a duty to the vulnerable, that includes the elderly who need that help. So many people would condemn your view of that as selfish and uncaring.

As long as they aren't the same people who think that it is perfectly acceptable to not take in a niece due to mild inconvenience because that would be some astounding hypocrisy!

I am more than happy to have a debate about personal and familial responsibility for vulnerable people vs what should be provided by society at large - after all, that is how society works.

Society as a whole judges what it believes to be moral or immoral, right or wrong, acceptable or unacceptable. Those collective values frame what is expected in terms of individual responsibility and state responsibility. Those judgements determine our laws and what services are provided and available.

Everybody judges other people's behaviour, decisions and opinions all of the time - including you. You are judging people on this thread who have views and opinions that don't agree with yours, it is clear from the tone of your posts, especially where you have shown your sarcasm.

I haven't been sarcastic once, so not sure what you're reading into that isn't there.

I think, in the kind of situation where there is an elderly parent or a young person in need of care, that collectivist societies where the family takes responsibility is probably the ideal. They take it as a group then and carers are well supported. We aren't set up like that though, and the state does provide a lot of services that are more characteristic of the individualist society we are.

Where you are wrong is that taking on a teen with a troubled background is a 'mild inconvenience'. It's not. It's a huge responsibility that will be a huge learning curve for anyone who doesn't have a good understanding of this sort of thing. Not everyone is up to the task and it's generally better for all concerned if they are honest about it.

If you aren't providing full care for your parents, then you aren't in a position to judge anyone who can't provide full care for a child.

You can't compare someone showing a lack of empathy to a hypothetical situation to your own response in a real life situation.

And in the example you describe I would have done exactly the same thing. In the scenario it is your elderly grandmother that was showing a selfishness and lack of empathy towards her own daughter.

Just as I cannot imagine, in my current situation (e.g. financially stable, no serious health issues for me, DH or my kids), not taking in a niece or nephew, I equally cannot imagine being selfish enough to run my own children into the ground by expecting them to look after me because I didn't like the idea of going into a home.

I saw my own nan work herself to the bone looking after my gran when she had a stroke, even though she had lung cancer herself (which we didn't know at the time).

No-one likes the idea of needing personal care or having to move into a care home, but I would drag myself over hot coals before I expected my children to have to work themselves to the bone having to care for me. I hope I get to die peacefully in my own bed without every needing personal care, but if I do reach that stage, then I won't hesitate to move into a home!

Today, 7:06 "Here you are OP, another volunteer to take in your niece." in response to someone saying they would move heaven and hell to keep their niece out of care.

That is blatant sarcasm!

Where you are wrong is that taking on a teen with a troubled background is a 'mild inconvenience'.

<sigh> - again, I was responding to people who said they would never do it - these people weren't saying "I wouldn't take on my niece if she came from a troubled background, but would if they bought up in a nice stable home and happened to have lost their parents to illness or an accident". They were saying outright, they would never do it if it disrupted their own lives.

Adults who have elderly care needs have multiple options and choice. Children who do not have biological parents that are able to care for them do not have agency, multiple options or choice. It is a false equivalence, which if you have developed training in children's services you should fully understand.

I said COULDN'T, not WOULDN'T.

You know nothing about the circumstances my family and siblings live in. Don't you DARE comment on things you are not aware of. Don't you think we would have taken him if we could?

Taking on a troubled teenager is more than ‘a mild inconvenience’. It would fundamentally change the household, with the potential of destroying it. Relationships can and do break apart under the strain of it, and while it may be nice to imagine that the biological children would ultimately find their parents sacrifice to be admirable, it’s not in any way unusual for them to come out of such a environment feeling the exact opposite. It has the potential to break apart those relationships, too. These are no minor considerations, and that’s without taking into consideration the financial and material impact.

There’s a vast difference between a village of willing individuals, and a prison camp. There’s a rose tinted idea of communal societies inherently being superior, where everyone is willing to do what they ‘should’ without resentment. The reality is that they are riddled with their own issues of abuse, and are by no means lacking in an abundance of unwanted, neglected and abandoned children, the same as they were in the much mourned past. Those workhouses you reference were full of those children.

Communal societies tend also to be sexist ones where ‘care’ overwhelmingly burdens women, regardless of how those women actually feel about it.

Of course people are allowed to have a negative opinion of OP’s sister, but thank fuck that this isn’t something that needs to govern her life.

Re empathy. It’s significantly more complex than it is being presented as. Having empathy, cognitive and/or emotional, for the niece’s situation does not mean that someone is going to consider it their problem to solve, or compel them to act upon it over and above all other considerations.

Having empathy for the sister and supporting her choice is also, you know, demonstrative of empathy. That empathy isn’t going towards the party you think it should be, partially or entirely, isn’t the same thing as a lack of it.

Not everyone is cut out to be a parent, and while it would be fabulous if families could rally at times like these, it is so much worse to put a child with family that doesn't want them. Your niece will no doubt know she is unwanted, and that must be awful. Presumably your sister doesn't have any other kids, or they've grown up and she feels she's done her parenting? There's no rule book that says she should give up her freedom to deal with your other sister's shortcomings. If it were me, I would probably try to take her, but she's entitled to be a bit put out that this has happened to her. I also feel terribly sorry for your niece. She's old enough to have lost faith in her family and the system by now.

We're currently going through something very similar with teenage DD's friend whose parents don't want her. She's been living with us on and off for the past three years and permanently for the last two months. While we're more than happy to provide a safe space, it's a lot more than a mild inconvenience. The cost of living is absolutely hideous right now, and having another teenage mouth to feed combined with things like haircuts and clothes is a lot to take on. I can only assume that, as family taking a child in, that you get some financial support, but we haven't heard anything from this child's mother which I find utterly appalling. She's no doubt getting financial support but offering none of it to her daughter.

Obviously, it would be amazing if you could keep your niece out of care, but it isn't always that straightforward.