to think some women should not be punishing their DM/MILs regarding childcare?

[cupofcup]

I keep seeing posts where women say if their DM/MIL won’t do childcare for them now, then they won’t be there for her when she’s older.

Not even said in anger, more like a matter-of-fact stance. You didn’t help me, so I won’t help you.

Doing regular childcare when you’re older and maybe tired, working, or not in great health isn’t always doable. It’s not always a case of just not wanting to.

Relationships aren’t contracts. You don’t bank hours of babysitting and cash them in later for elderly care.

I can understand feeling less close to a parent who isn’t around or doesn’t make an effort. That’s just human. But deciding years in advance that you won’t look after them as a punishment feels harsh.

As usual, DF/FILs are not threatened in this way.

I am not saying all women do this or that there are not happy childcare arrangements.

This question again? It’s like Groundhog Day round here at the moment…

Either you're a family that helps each other or you're not.

You don't get to prioritise yourself at some points and then insist on others prioritising you at others.

OH NO I THOUGHT WE WERE DONE WITH THIS? Did we get just a short reprieve for good behaviour? I've gone back to being teetotal for 12 weeks. I don't have the coping skills for this repetitive post without drink! 😭

But your MIL or DM has already done the work of raising children. She’s already helped you / H by doing that.

You have to erase that from the equation for your argument to have any legs at all.

Tbh I don’t really see people saying that. But do see families where they’ve always been close and that closeness extends to when the elderly need support at the end of their lives. And those families where there clearly has been distance throughout. It makes sense to me that my mum, who always helps us out where she can and is close to us and her grandchildren and great grandchildren will be supported by us all if and when she needed it. My MIL who lives miles away, didn’t visit much even when she was well enough to and didn’t and doesn’t show much interest in our lives? No. She won’t get support from me or my children. More so from my son but duty- driven. Not love.

As the Beatles said “and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make”

It seems like a stupid thing to say, probably in frustration.

Equally, caring for an elderly parent is horribly hard and especially hard when you have young teenagers and a full time job. I agree with a previous poster - you are either the type of family that helps each other in that way or you're not. But you can't have it both ways, can you?

I pay for all childcare. My parents and in laws have made provisions for themselves financially. My MIL died recently after a long illness, she was disabled for the last 3 years - she had carers (which we helped pay for), no one did any personal care except for her DH.

We all have a great relationship and see each other a lot but no one is doing any personal care at this stage.

For fucks sake

Fuck me, thread 11. This is daily now.

I have to say I rarely think it is transactional, and often not said at the time. I think what happens more is one member of the family is seen as needing less and becomes a source of support for the family and never gets anything back in the way of support or recognition.

People say “childcare” as if it is one thing. In reality it is watching a sibling get hours of support week in week out for years- whilst you cope and muddle through by yourself.

It is knowing a sibling sees your parents three or four times more a month than you for years at at time.

And then one day it changes, because they need something, and the calls become more frequent, and the invites become more often, because they are tied to something else- mowing the lawn, a hospital trip.

You realise they are picking up the relationship again because they need something from you now.

I don’t care my brother gets more childcare and help that me. I do care that they probably see my parents 8 or 9 times more than me. However you cut it that is building a relationship.

In those hours and hours I am not seeing them I am building other relationships that will take care of- mother-in-law, friends etc. I am not going to drop my new network, or village or family in the future- it’s just not how I am wired

The MIL point is interesting.

Why have you lumped them in and made this about women punishing women?

Do men no punish MILS and FILs by refusing to care for them?

Can you clearly articulate why youve asked about a WOMAN punishing a mother or father in law, rather than their own SON? It's not like in laws have cared for DILs as children. They are literally strangers related by marriage.

Men are not threatened in this way, and men don't make these threats. Men don't say if my dad won't do childcare for me I won't look after him when he's old. Because men don't see arranging childcare with other men as a thing they need to do, and they don't see becoming their parents carer as a real possibility for their future.
This is always framed as a pull and push between women with the generations engaging in transactions to get what they need from other women. When if men did more we wouldn't need to expect so much from each other in the first place.

I think there is a difference when their is favouritism or a huge imbalance of assistance to between siblings.

If you are on the bare bones of you arse emotionally, financially, practically whilst your parents could help but won’t in any way shape or form unsurprisingly you don’t feel like putting yourselves out for them in the future.

Raising your own children isn't helping anyone - it's your choice to have them and then it is absolutely your responsibility to raise them.

You can't claim that your children owe you for that.

“Doing regular childcare when you’re older and maybe tired, working, or not in great health isn’t always doable.”

This applies to caring for the elderly as well. It’s up to grandparents to decide how much childcare to provide and it’s up to children to decide how much care to provide to ageing parents. It’s very simplistic to look at it as a simple punishment or being transactional. And even if it is, that’s the child decision to make. People often say in these threads that children aren’t owed childcare by their parents, but then by that same logic, they aren’t owed any care themselves. It seems rather entitled to not want to go out of their way for their children for their own reasons, but have an expectation that their children will do the same for them. Especially as in my family’s experience providing care for elderly relatives is significantly more challenging than caring for a child.

I know there is a gransnet website, but I think mumsnet needs a grandsnet board and they can just migrate all these threads over there. They are so repetitive, and the OP never wants a debate or discussion, just tells us how hard they have it, but we still need to spend 20 years caring for them in their old age because they did the legal minimum and raised a child.

I can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to spend time with grandchildren. It’s a real pang not having small children anymore and that period of your life having gone. Sign me up for the zoo and the park. It’s not the chore it’s made out to be.

Raising the children your own children isn’t helping them out. It’s the base expectation of the responsibility you took on in having children. My husband wasn’t ’helping out’ our baby by changing his nappy ten minutes ago; he was providing the basic care to a child he chose to have. Weaponising raising your children against them is a bonkers argument.

As I get older, I am putting things into place to limit what others will have to do.

So - clearing the house and keeping it clear. Ensuring documents are in order, sorting out wills/advanced directives. Staying as healthy as I can (which isn't very with several chronic illnesses).

I need to keep doing what needs doing - for my brain, for my body. I see so many people burdening their children, not with what they can't do - but with what they don't want to/find hard. This harms both them and their children.

Elder care is a massive burden to families - and it should be acknowledged to be so. If family members are giving up time to do this it should be appreciated and I think it should be financially compensated by the elder. If family members choose not to do this then the elder should pay others for care they cannot do themselves - somehow this changes what they decide they can manage.

I think your premise is just wrong OP.

You’re only “punishing” your DMIL or DM if you think that they would otherwise have had a right to be given care, that is being withdrawn. Frankly, raising your kids doesn’t entitle you to be cared for by them, certainly not in a personal care sense. Why is a MIL even being brought into it - that’s a DH job?

The only reason why someone would want to put considerable effort into being an unpaid carer for their mother in law for potentially decades is if that person had been kind to them- by being compassionate and caring, which is usually demonstrated by being helpful. That doesn’t mean operating as a nursery 8-7 5 days a week - that’s a lot and many people don’t live that close. But, y’know, offering to bring a lasagne when you come to stay, offering a night of babysitting, generally being helpful and respectful of family life, empathising with your kids is also good! If people don’t have that kind of relationship with their parents as adults, they are hardly going to want to become carers are they?

So you think that MILs have helped their DILs by raising their husbands (maybe by doing the bare legal minimum amount of care and support to prevent the children being taken into care) so they are now owed elderly care from their DIL?

I doubt that would be winning argument!

I think this is probably the correct answer.

You can’t expect to not help others in their moment of need; and then when it’s yours be surprised they aren’t willing to drop everything for you.

Albeit - I don’t think you can apply this to eg expecting a day a week of childcare or similar. More like the ‘I won’t help at all’ approach, never available to babysit ever etc.

There’s a big difference between regular childcare in place of a paid nursery place - and the ad hoc stuff.

If you put expectations on people shouldn't they be part of the decision for you to conceive or not and how many? And if people do the gasp shock horror 'dont be silly' why not?

Do people really expect to get pregnant then turn around and demand childcare?

Are older people, code for women, have their life switched over to providing service when it suits?

Plus the dictating too of what is and is not acceptable to feed, meet the latest parenting 'advice' and other 'you will care for my children and have to do it my way or else'

Two scenarios:

Grandparents show no interest at all in their kids, never mind grandkids, and turn down invitations to visit them*
Fair enough not to feel any pull to support them beyond any basics.

Grandparents say that, sorry, they won't be doing regular, work covering, whole day childcare or every day school drop offs and pick ups
It would be very unreasonable to refuse to give them any help in old age. They're entitled to freedom and spontaneity in retirement

*The invitation bit is important. I've lost count of the number of times I've posted "but have you invited them?" when people complain they their parents don't visit.

This!

I thinks it’s because no one uses Gransnet & MNs clearly has a shrinking younger audience.

You raising your own kids isn't you helping anyone, it's a parents obligation. You give them up or you raise them. Helping with your grandchildren and helping your elderly parents are nice things to do but not compulsory and I agree, you're a family that helps each other or you aren't.