to think some women should not be punishing their DM/MILs regarding childcare?

[cupofcup]

I keep seeing posts where women say if their DM/MIL won’t do childcare for them now, then they won’t be there for her when she’s older.

Not even said in anger, more like a matter-of-fact stance. You didn’t help me, so I won’t help you.

Doing regular childcare when you’re older and maybe tired, working, or not in great health isn’t always doable. It’s not always a case of just not wanting to.

Relationships aren’t contracts. You don’t bank hours of babysitting and cash them in later for elderly care.

I can understand feeling less close to a parent who isn’t around or doesn’t make an effort. That’s just human. But deciding years in advance that you won’t look after them as a punishment feels harsh.

As usual, DF/FILs are not threatened in this way.

I am not saying all women do this or that there are not happy childcare arrangements.

Yes my parents made it very clear they wouldn't be doing regular childcare. But when they visited they babysat. My mum and MIL were very helpful when we had newborns- they came and cooked and cleaned and handled everything.
MIL I think would have loved to do childcare- but this meant pulling the kids out of nursery every time she came, and that wasn't sensible.

If the argument: 'raising your own kids is the bare minimum and doesn't entitle you to life long care from your kids' is being used for the older generation then it should apply to the current generation. If you are using your parents for regular childcare, then are you abdicating 'raising your kids' to them and doing the bare minimum? (I am deliberately being provocative here). And so should your own kids not really look after you in old age?

I'm in my mid 40s- teen and a pre-tween. I intend to be free and travel a bit when they are older. If they have an urgent need of course I'll come and help them. But my post retirement life isn't going to be centred around the daily rhythms of my kids and my grandkids. It doesn't mean I don't love or care for them- it means that we have our agency too.

All my friends work full time and have children so would struggle to do regular care for the elderly.

My parents didn't help me with childcare despite being a single FT working mum. I did feel frustrated at times when I felt particularly stressed. However, I never felt that they owed to me. Ultimately, they lost out because it means my kids don't feel particularly closed to them. They didn't allow for that special grandparent/grandchild bond to develop. When my mum moaned about it a few years ago, I had to be honest. It hurt her feelings but she admitted that it was indeed the consequences of her choices then. She now regrets not having been more involved.

Of course I will help them when they need me, I'm already doing so. I couldn't imagine not doing so because they didn't help with childcare. They were very good parents in some ways and not so good in others. Ultimately though, they are my family and I'm theirs.

@saraclara

well yes, but there are also people who come to visit and do absolutely nothing to be helpful at all, or who demand visits beyond what is reasonable as a “day out”, who expect you to entertain them with your full attention whilst your two year old sticks their fingers in plug sockets. I mean, surely most people do invite people for the number of visits that they can easily manage (which might not be the number acceptable to grandparents!) if those people are helpful, good guests and good company?

I have no skin in this game. I'm childless and I care for my parents. But the number of threads on this recently...🙄

The thing about pushing the idea that no one should ever expect older relatives to help them out in any way is:

1. Fair enough, no one has to do anything they don't want to do (or don't feel up to doing). Full stop.

But

1. It does go both ways, whether you like it or not. You can't conversely insist younger relatives have a duty towards you. Not because relationships are transactional but because the same values you hold regarding your freedom to not help anyone out should apply across the board to everyone, not just you. You're not special.

And the other thing these threads seem to do is insist no one is allowed to observe any generational disparities. So for example, me and my sibling were sent to live with my grandparents for the 6 week summer holidays until we were teenagers.

My parents did not provide any childcare for my nieces and nephews because they didn't want to. Apparently this is quite a common experience for this generation, but we're meant to never mention the generational disparities lest we upset anyone.

Children didn’t asked to be born so the first raising holds nothing.
It’s the did you help me with my children when I was struggling, then I will help you.
That’s where it starts. Looking after older people is less pleasant than looking after children. Compare a nursery to a care home, I know where I would rather work.

I think it's more said as an observation than threatening a punishment. The families who are close and support the elderly in the family are the same families that are supporting the parents of young children in the family and/or supporting family members that have disabilities.
It would be very hypercritical for a grandparent to expect care when they are elderly if they haven't supported their children/grandchildren. (Raising the children you chose to have does not count as support). You can't get angry at someone prioritising themselves over caring for you when your elderly if you have done the exact same to them when they wanted your support.

Agree with this.

Family members make their own choices and those choices have effects on both sides.

Also, relationships are transactional to a certain extent, OP.

Few would want to tolerate constantly giving and getting very little in return or nothing at all even worse if giving and getting insulted or ignored.

Also OP, have you ever been a carer for an elderly person? I have and it is actually way more tiring than doing so for a baby/child, ime.

I was a carer for my grandmother and am a carer for my disabled son with two other children and being a carer for my grandmother even with my physically able parents was harder due to the dynamic and her needs.

The dynamic is harder because you’re dealing with an elderly person, not a child you have raised yourself and have built a structure with them from birth. Adults have their own opinions, they want things their own way and you cannot force them even if it’s for their own health, it’s harder to help them clean and wash compared to a child, they may need help to the loo or incontinent and you will have to change their pants. There’s some loss of dignity even if that person is family.

Would you be comfortable with your in-laws or an adult child you weren’t close to or comfortable with and vice versa seeing you nude, changing your pads and bedding because you soiled them? There’s also the likelihood of medications, timings, whether they can do it themselves, need to be watched while doing it, or you having to do it. What medications do they need? Are they daily, weekly? Injections, orally? Will there be suppositories involved due to side effects of other medications? Can they make their own meals or will you have to do it, is there a special diet they are on? Will they need people to come in and if so, who is paying for that? Add in years of doing this and the effects on the carer and the family. My mother was sad when her mum died but she was also very relieved not to have her life beholden to the caring responsibilities anymore.

I will not be doing any caring responsibilities or a lot of help for my mother and definitely not for my MIL. I will do what I can in my own capacity which is not much considering my own situation. My parents have said they will sort themselves after the caring responsibilities they did for my mother’s parents and not wanting it to be placed on my sister and I, even more so with us having our own children.

My MIL, it’s between her and my husband and knowing him he won’t either, again live hours away, 3 children, one disabled . MIL has plenty of other family members and friends including her daughter who is an actual medical professional. Her other son lives in Canada with his wife and children.

If someone has had to put their career progression on hold/stop working due to lack of child care. They are most likely only just getting reestablished in work at the time their parents need care, and so really arn't in a position to put work on the back-burner a second time.

In contrast, someone who had family suport when their children were young is likely to be much more financially stable and in a more senior role, where they may be able to negotiate the flexibility and manage the drop in income, which comes with taking on a care role.

I think it’s the ability to change usernames and someone with an axe to grind

Where are the threads where men are saying to their fathers or FILs that if you do not provide childcare then I won't look after you when you get old?]

Look at most threads regarding childcare arrangements - it is mostly DMs or MILs.

Maybe it is not a chore for you but it is for some who are doing it week in week out.

It’s not just this, it’s also the near daily goady posts from a first time poster who never responds that is getting ridiculous

The children who didn't ask to be born then become elderly didn't ask to become elderly either.

Report it then.

If you find it a chore step back? If you don’t want to do it, don’t? You don’t have to do childcare or help out a family member, there’s no obligation.

You don’t have to get old. Switzerland has found a cure for that

I’ve made this point on a few of your other threads.

If my mum or MIL makes it clear they aren’t interested in helping me with my kids, no matter if I am struggling, that is inevitably going to affect how I feel about them. It will also affect how close the grandchildren feel to them.

That will result in visiting less, and helping them less with old age stuff. Not in a tit for tat or transactional way but just because I will feel less close to them than if they’d been there when I was in the trenches.

A grandparent who chooses to keep themselves detached from their adult kids, and puts themselves first, can’t be surprised or put out when those adult kids end up feel detached from them and in turn, choose to put themselves first.

To your second paragraph, I suppose it depends on whether you view having someone else looking after your child regularly (either grandparents, a nursery, a nanny, a childminder) as you “abdicating raising your kids”.

ETA - but your comment about your own children then not having to look after you, I’d agree with that in any situation. I don’t think anyone is entitled to care from their children. Or childcare from their parents.

The children who didn't ask to be born then become elderly didn't ask to become elderly either.

What do you mean by elderly?

To me older age, does not equate to being elderly.

If I called my aunts who are in their late 70s elderly, they’d find it insulting.

No indeed. Those are the lovely bits. Combining childcare with a job and care for your own elderly relatives, the restrictions of knowing you need to be there for pick up, plan your holidays around theirs, entertaining boisterous toddlers for 8 hours straight, hauling around equipment, following strict rules and guidelines because 'its different now', not the same thing.
I do this and gladly from free choice, but I'd be a bit put out if my adult children framed this as some sort of treat for me without acknowledging that its also useful and at times challenging work. Made not a bit easier for me than them by the fact I'm decades older.

The difference is that the children didn’t ask to be born are raised to parents who are choosing to raise them (either by birth or adoption) and that choice to raise children comes with the responsibility to raise them. The children have no say and no agency because they are dependent children.

The elderly will have spend most of their lives as independent adults who are fully aware that becoming elderly is likely for most people and can prepare for that. They are not the responsibility of their adult children. Can you really not see the difference?

Equally you can’t berate your parents for not helping you. The equivalence with caring for older parents is if they cared for theirs.

People who need care then.

Its also vanishly rare to see someone refuse paid childcare and effectively force their parents into caring for their children, whereas I know plenty of people whose elderly parents don't want strangers in the house or don't want to pay out for care, but actually need huge amounts of input from their adult children to keep them safe and well.