to think some women should not be punishing their DM/MILs regarding childcare?

[cupofcup]

I keep seeing posts where women say if their DM/MIL won’t do childcare for them now, then they won’t be there for her when she’s older.

Not even said in anger, more like a matter-of-fact stance. You didn’t help me, so I won’t help you.

Doing regular childcare when you’re older and maybe tired, working, or not in great health isn’t always doable. It’s not always a case of just not wanting to.

Relationships aren’t contracts. You don’t bank hours of babysitting and cash them in later for elderly care.

I can understand feeling less close to a parent who isn’t around or doesn’t make an effort. That’s just human. But deciding years in advance that you won’t look after them as a punishment feels harsh.

As usual, DF/FILs are not threatened in this way.

I am not saying all women do this or that there are not happy childcare arrangements.

Have you ever been a carer? Specifically for an adult?

My ds is in her early sixties and adores her first gc and is helping loads. Last week she offered to help beyond her main day that she does and then offers more.

Naturally dn avails himself of help with great enthusiasm but doesn’t pay close attention to arrangements. She offered 1 - 2pm one day recently and he turned up with the baby at 11 and left at 4. She was a little irritated but she adores the baby and finds it hard to be firm.

She will obviously, over time, develop stronger boundaries but it’s hard for her to say no. And it’s hard for the young parents not to push for more than is offered.

But weaponizing access is also a thing and that feels horrible.

They will work it out over time but I think so many of us do not realise how hard it will be to have kids.

Also parents now are not as strict which can be hard for older gps. I know a woman well who refused to look after her gc because she wasn’t quick or strong enough to wrangle them into the car or safety. She said the parents had brought them up to be fairly feral so she just didn’t feel she could handle them safely. So she withdrew all childcare.

My in laws were fantastic and took my two whenever they could and on holiday and away for the weekends. They took them to shows, museums, they were amazing. But they were very young fit grandparents and nothing was a greater priority! We were super lucky. But that was fairly evident as soon as I met DH and before we had kids - you could see what they were like as people and their generosity. But they lived three hours away so the support wasn’t on the doorstep.
I do think some new parents make assumptions about support which are not founded on anything.

Childcare is such hard physical work and new parents naturally don’t know what it’s like to be older and physically less robust.

I also think there is an understandable bitterness in young couples who look at the economic world that the grandparents benefited from. Some grandparents can or are willing to share those benefits more than others.

Elder care is a whole other world of complexity and that’s going to get ever more complicated. I don’t think it can be seen as quid pro quo - caring for the elders is so dependent on the individual case.

There arent any because its womens work and the menz aren't trifling themselves to figure out the problem.

Yes.

I can post where I want thanks. I think you're extremely rude.

This

My family - originally me, my mum, my dad and my sister, just never functioned this like this. My brother is very selfish but the rest of us helped each other without thinking- with childcare etc. my mum died young sadly but my dad was devoted to us and we were devoted to him. He died without actually needing any heavy care but I’d have done anything I could for him, as would my sister. We did it because we were family and loved each other. Not helping wasn’t even a consideration but we already had that relationship.

Grandparents childcare threads are the new P&C car parking threads.

I think this is because MN has been going for a long time and people tend to stick with sites they started with.

It’s not that rare. I know someone who was emotionally strong armed into providing childcare because the other grandma had volunteered and apparently it “wasn’t fair” for her not to step up too. She was simultaneously caring for her parents who both had dementia. God knows where she found the strength to deal with it. She’s a better woman than me.

This thread has been repeated over and over. It's designed to pit women against women and old against young, ultimately pushing a reactionary agenda against working mothers, because they are selfish/ stupid / it's impossible to both have financial self sufficiency and children. It is sexist and misogynist and I am absolutely sick of it.

These OPs always start off with a standard question, but within a few posts the OP always brings up that men aren't asked to do the same.

So I'm going with 'the same person who has an ace to grind', despite the being some truth to that observation.

That, plus there are people here like me. I'm a GP, but I don't want to inhabit a grandparent bubble. I want to understand or be reminded of what it's like to be parenting dependent children now. And being on Mumsnet has, I think, made me a better grandparent.

And of course you don't stop being a parent when your kids teach adulthood. So there's that too. I'm probably also a more considerate mother of adults.

I will say that the site makes me appreciate my DDs more and more, because they're easy going, thoughtful and appreciative. When I have my Grandkids I'm not faced with loads of rules, for starters!

Or perhaps it is showing that in some scenarios the situation is untenable. Women used to cover (and still do to an extent) unpaid caring. Now women have options and more agency and perhaps we need other options than guilting them into childcare and elder care.

Exactly. People are objecting a lot to the grandparent threads. Maybe it makes some people uncomfortable about the burden they put on older women?

Looking about the site more widely I've seen a collection of similar topics related to the grandmother issue (as it does seem to be mainly grandmothers starting the threads?).

There is a thread about people not respecting women's time as compared to men, there is a thread about a friend feeling she is being taken advantage off by another female friend concerning childcare and women pushing childcare on other women more generally. It is not only grandmothers but I have noticed people are more incensed when they push back (and there has been a flood of threads).

I think it may make people uncomfortable that women are not making choices that would make their lives easier the same way there was for childfree women and unmarried women in the past. There will always be grandmothers very happy and able to do childcare just as there are women both happy and able to be mothers but anyone straying from the expectations even if they fall into these categories (on their own terms/with boundaries) still get such a push back.

It’s just women/ daughters ?

I haven't come across any threads or in real life where men are getting upset with their DF or FIL for not doing childcare. I am sure there are some.

I think you’ve put your finger on it tbh.

It’s not really about grandmothers specifically, it’s that anything involving care, time, helping out just seems to default back to women. No one really questions it until someone says actually no, and then it suddenly becomes a big issue.

I agree, it’s the reaction that stands out. It’s like people have already decided what that woman’s role should be, so when she doesn’t go along with it, it feels almost like she’s doing something wrong rather than just making a choice.

We’ve seen it before as well. Women who didn’t want kids or didn’t want to get married, used to get loads of pushback. Now it’s more women who are technically in those roles but don’t want to do it in the expected way or all the time.

Obviously there are loads of grandmothers who love being really involved and that works for them, but that doesn’t mean everyone should be expected to do the same. There’s a difference between choosing to help and it just being assumed which rarely exists for men.

I think it unsettles people because if more women start putting boundaries in, it exposes how much everyone relies on that unpaid, unspoken support. Instead of looking at that properly, it’s easier to get annoyed at the woman who’s said no.

Interesting article here:

ageing-better.org.uk/blogs/what-happens-when-we-stop-relying-womens-unpaid-work

I've seen a collection of similar topics related to the grandmother issue (as it does seem to be mainly grandmothers starting the threads?)

I think it’s one particular grandmother starting 90% of them.

The reason you don’t see men saying it is because the vast majority of people on here are women.

So you know the difference in babysitting and caring?

I agree that no one should be made to do anything they don’t want and that includes babysitting of grandchildren and the caring for elderly parents, however there are consequences with that choice as there are consequences for doing so both positive and negative.

It works both ways. Your post is about women, daughters and daughter in law 'punishing' grandmother's by saying they won't do elderly care. Where do the sons and son in laws come into this elderly care? Why is a woman not providing elderly care a punishment? It's like you're saying it's okay for the elderly to expect women in the family to care for them but no one should be expected to help with their young children.