To wonder why working class white boys do worse than any other ethnic group, and how we can change this?

[Carla786]

A lot of stuff I've read recently has argued the way school is set up disadvantages boys compared to girls. But this doesn't explain why white working class boys would perform worse than wc boys of other ethnicities.
Asian wc boys are more likely to have present fathers,,but black wc boys less likely than white boys (I think). So absent fathers I'm sure are part of the problem, but then maybe also black boys then have a protective factor that still boosts performance which white boys don't have? What could this be?

And how can white wc boys be helped? The question also remains why white wc girls are apparently less affected too : maybe I suppose tying in to school methods being more suited to the average girl?

https://www.spiked-online.com/2026/03/24/the-betrayal-of-white-working-class-boys/

@anourishingsoup

I don't see it as a failure of multiculturalism at all, it's a failure because certain groups (or sections within them) want it this way. Not everyone values education as we know it. The above two groups are not going to budge on this, many attempts have failed. The next best thing is to try to help them to improve things that they deem acceptable. Again, not 'education' as society would see it, but at least it might be a slight improvement. Both groups want to be isolated, it's the only way they feel they can continue on.

Mainly "failure of multiculturalism" was the wrong way to characterise it. I'm not anti multiculturalism. But what jumps out to me is the glaring contrast between these communities and other communities which historically have pursued sex based discrimination in which the state has (rightly) over-ridden these cultural sensitivities. And lack of any intellectual rigour and consistency in the approach.

For example there are certain Muslim communities (not all at all) where women are pushed into marriage very young and education is deprioritised and mainstream British society very much disapproves of this (as it should do). But with travelers its deemed acceptable and I don't understand the rationale behind the different approaches.

It's fine to want to be "isolated" in terms of preserving your cultural heritage etc: I'm very much a supporter of this. But imposing on half the population a deliberate withdrawal of right and opportunities in the name of this isolation is profoundly wrong, however you cut it. I fully support people's right to decide they want to be isolated but I object to the idea of this being imposed upon girls without giving them the choice to enter mainstream society if they want to.

I agree that it's not fair that choice is absent from the outset. Both of these groups (Jewish one more so) shun secular education and boys have been outcast from the community for going to public libraries. With the girls, it's not about giving them autonomy, it's a necessary means to an end. Their career options are very limited, they only work within their community and don't have degrees.
From what I've observed in education, Muslim girls are highly encouraged into third level education, marriage is usually only considered after graduation. I'm sure there are some exceptions but it is by no means comparable to the norms seen in the above groups.

I taught a number of children from different Traveller families. One family were aware that their lifestyle was dying out and supported their son's education, staying put to allow him to remain in school.

Others stuck to the old ways. If Travellers insist on sticking to their itinerant lifestyle they're basically abdicating responsibility for their children's education and future in this country in the second quarter of the 21st century.

Their choice, but they can hardly moan that they're unfairly treated - in my experience, everyone leaned over backwards to help, but the help wasn't appreciated or accessed.

it's been that way for decades actually. White, British, working class boys have been performing worse than any other group for a long time. It was actually one of the reasons that "Pupil Premium" funding was introduced. To help give more support to those in low economic groups.

I've been a primary school teacher for almost 20 years, across the full range of socio-economic groups, and I'd have to say white British boys, closely followed by mixed-race British boys are the worse behaved demographic.

@anourishingsoup

I agree that it's not fair that choice is absent from the outset. Both of these groups (Jewish one more so) shun secular education and boys have been outcast from the community for going to public libraries. With the girls, it's not about giving them autonomy, it's a necessary means to an end. Their career options are very limited, they only work within their community and don't have degrees.

But why do the career options have to be very limited? I understand that at present they mainly work within the community (if at all). But why is this set in stone forever? I know large parts of the community are hostile to the idea of changing but change only happens when brave people decide to step out of the comfort zone. What's odd is that the state seems to reluctant to even attempt to support those girls in the communities who do want to be educated.

It's the kind of dogged resignation on behalf of mainstream society that "they will never change". By definition there must be some young women in the traveler communities who want to go to secondary school and higher education. Why not at least allow for some support to happen in these rarer cases?

Ultra orthodox men generally do not work after marriage, the woman supports the family so that the man can learn (religious learning) full time.
What the actual fuck .
On another note, describing the group at the root of the whole discussion as 'working class' is not really the correct term. There may be family members working with some of them, but in my teaching experience they are not a working class demographic; underclass isn't a pleasant term but not everything has to be nice to be accurate.

Career options have to be very limited because it's a community that has very conformist, strict rules. Step outside of what is acceptable and you and your whole family could be shunned and your siblings kicked out of their schools. From what I know the ultra orthodox are not allowed to study with non Jews (or possibly even non charedi Jews) so going to college/university is completely out of the question. I think there are seminary type colleges for them in Manchester and Gateshead but these are more religious learning, I don't think it's accredited secular courses. So that in itself limits career options.
Edited: I think Traveller women who work also are restricted to certain jobs. All women I've come across work within beauty, children's clothes and cleaning products and their target audience is other Travellers. Nothing wrong with that, but I think it's about toeing the community line.

I'm Indian. It's apathy and no interest towards education. No sense of bettering yourself.

Also lack of parenting and discipline. My children have acted up, had issues and been a menace but have never done ASB or stolen stuff.

And yes I pushed my children educationally.

Apathy could be because the route out if you aren’t academic (not able to get both GCSE English and Maths) has been stopped.

Why should there be an interest in education if not being able to do just one aspect of it means anything you want to do, even if you are brilliant at it. The answer is No

Years ago if you passed or didn’t pass anything you could still go forward to college. Even university wasn’t out of the question

As an example exh would have been working in an Amazon warehouse on minimum wage
Instead of getting a Degree in Law and a 6 figure salary in the City
(Failed both English Lit and Language)

Forgive me if I don't think that poaching the top tier of the 3rd world away from where they're most needed is a good thing.

See in many Asian households we don't just shrug and say "oh I'm not academic". We get to work and we study. My DC was better at maths than English. He worked very hard to up and improve from his mock grades and get good results in both English GCSEs.

My DH also earns a 6 figure salary in the city.

I wouldn't want a lawyer who didn't pass his English language GCSE. I would have no confidence in their ability.

Where did I say that?
I think you have wildly misinterpreted what I said.

I think we all have different interpretations of working class. Some people think the working class don't work.
Are we talking free school meals? Family income? Family employment? Unskilled labour vs skilled labour? Council house/ social housing tenants? Family educational achievement? Marital status - many women were defined by their husband's occupation. Professional jobs?
I previously claimed to be working class. My parents were well educated, for their generation. They did not go to university. We did not qualify for free school meals. My father ran his own business. We had a good lifestyle, were always well fed and clothed. We owned a 4 bedroom detached house in a working class area. That area is now a deprived area- many HMOs. We later moved to a 4 bed detached with a large garden, overlooking a park, in a middle class area.
My friends' parents had jobs such as a butcher, a postman, working in car factories. I thought these were working class jobs. Car workers now tend to earn about 50k a year. Is this a working class salary?
Some owned their own houses, some were council house tenants, a few lived in flats. My Dad had friends from business, the police, solicitors, doctors and working class friends such as builders and plumbers. My mother helped him to run the family business. I didn't realise it at the time, but she was unusual, for her generation. I would never have considered her to be a businesswoman, but in her own little way, she was. My friends' mothers tended to be stay at home mums, part time secretaries, part-time barmaids. Little jobs that fitted in with family.
My sister and I both attained degrees. She had a professional job. I ran my own business for years before taking a professional job. The business paid better. My brother did not gain qualifications but went on to run the family business. Was he a white working class boy? He spends his retirement going on cruises.
I was surprised to learn that Jews are working class. I don't know many, but the few I do know are doctors and solicitors. I used to drive through Golders Green and thought the orthodox jews looked smart and respectable.
Are Robert Peston, Rob Rinder, Vanessa Feltz and Esther Rantzen considered to be working class?
In literature; A kid for 2 farthings was set in the poor East End community. Fagin is a thief - I suppose that is an underclass. Shylock is a money lender. He is despised for being wealthier than the middle class wasters. As well as being a Jew.

See in many Asian households we don't just shrug and say "oh I'm not academic"

I got fed up of people trying to say that about our kids - they struugled in early years.

One of DS primary school teachers told us DS would never be good at maths - glue ear and short term memory issues were hampering him in classroom - he got a maths A in maths A-level last summer because we didn't listen and write him off but supported him at home and did more work with him.

Good on him.