To wonder why working class white boys do worse than any other ethnic group, and how we can change this?

[Carla786]

A lot of stuff I've read recently has argued the way school is set up disadvantages boys compared to girls. But this doesn't explain why white working class boys would perform worse than wc boys of other ethnicities.
Asian wc boys are more likely to have present fathers,,but black wc boys less likely than white boys (I think). So absent fathers I'm sure are part of the problem, but then maybe also black boys then have a protective factor that still boosts performance which white boys don't have? What could this be?

And how can white wc boys be helped? The question also remains why white wc girls are apparently less affected too : maybe I suppose tying in to school methods being more suited to the average girl?

https://www.spiked-online.com/2026/03/24/the-betrayal-of-white-working-class-boys/

I went to a girls’ grammar in the north of England. Working class girls definitely hadn’t been weeded out.

i’m not sure whether grammar schools were a good idea overall or not, but they probably did promote social mobility for bright working class children.

Don't get me wrong, there aren't a lot of Asian children in the arts, but it is now an option for some whereas previously it wasn't a consideration.
There's an interesting thread about Harrow where posters are discussing how the increasing numbers of non ethnically white British pupils are changing the landscape, which is causing such schools to "lose their quintessential Britishness".

You are lying though. Demonstrably so. You said there are no DEI measures for white working class children.

That’s a lie. I’m have linked you to exactly those kinds of measures.

The pay thing isn't true, I taught in a Secondary Modern in the very early '70s and when the Authority was going Comprehensive I moved to the old Grammar school in preparation, it was becoming 13-18 with the Secondary Modern becoming a Middle School but my pay scale was the same in both.

You are correct
There are definitely DEI measures for white working class and travellers too

The pay scale was the same but, as I said, pay was degree related and you didn’t need a degree to teach at a secondary modern. Only around 20% of sm teachers had degrees in the 60s.

At grammars teachers got perks (ie allowances) for “good” honours’ degrees and extra funds for special positions that were more common in grammars. So on the same scale, grammar teachers often ended up being paid more.

What a load of old twaddle. The 11+ did not depend on cultural capital. It was an iQ test, consisting of verbal reasoning etc. It wasn't looking for what candidates knew, it was looking for candidates future potential.
I know. I took it. I passed. I was clever.
In no way did my parents have the time or money to drag me round museums and recitals or pay for extra tuition.
Although I did read a lot, my actual reading skills and knowledge from books was not tested. Nor my knowledge of history and geography. I didn't even study science until I got to grammar school. Nor French.

And it is also twaddle to say that girls would only get married. I can think of only one of my peers who married at 16. One out of 120. The rest of us were more aspirational. We wanted jobs, we wanted money, we wanted to go out into the world and achieve things. A large proportion of us 'only' became teachers

If it was truly an IQ test then tutoring for it wouldn't help and there's plenty of evidence that it does. Super bright kids pass regardless but the more average candidate can certainly be helped across the line.

Interesting, I must look into this.
I've had a look at the Harrow thread: it seems a bit of a strange situation. If these overseas Chinese & Indian students are so academic and not much into extracurriculars , why did their parents choose a school like Harrow which places importance on extras and ranks as less academic than some others, though still good?

Others cite similar experiences (unclear if they're talking about overseas Indian & Chinese students or British-born with that heritage). Certainly at my girls' school, which had lots of British Indian (though fewer Chinese) students, they did as many extracurriculars as everyone else and didn't seem to dominate academic prizes more than any other group..maybe it's different for some boys?

Interesting post. Too often the institutions that went with those workplaces have been forgotten.

Partly this is a result of the total absence of a safety net

• is there a total absence of a safety net in US? I know there isn't one in the same way as here,,but there is Social Security etc? I've heard Republican speeches against welfare dependency.

From what little I know of America,,I agree with what you say about aspiration for rural white wc. America does surely have a class system (insults like 'hillbilly' and 'white trash' make a mockery of claims it's a classless country) but not as entrenched a one as here. The ideal of the American Dream is a self-made person, way back to Lincoln being born in a log cabin.

I can see what you mean about finding it odd people are sad when kids move for better prospects: I suppose more recently this wasn't as necessary,,and people hark back to that. I mean, surely it's ideal not to have to leave for a better life? But obviously sometimes it must be done.

I don’t know how old you are and this wasn’t a thing when I was in school either. But all schools do get extra money for those pupils who have English as an Additional language (EAL)

Ds and his friend at 8years old (friend came to the UK at 3 months old) both struggled with reading and writing, his friend though was given separate lessons together with other pupils who weren’t born in the UK and after a while those who had the help moved off the lowest table and those who didn’t stayed put

OTOH I have a friend who despite her dc having spent all but the first few weeks of their lives abroad. On returning to the Uk as teens. Both children struggled with reading and writing English She asked about the EAL lessons but school told her they were only available to those born outside the UK

I’m 38, so I’m going to pretend me being eight wasn’t long ago. I know when our son was at a UK primary (he’s ten), the only additional thing there EAL students was a tablet to use google translate.

The 11+ still has verbal and non verbal reasoning tests. That's why the cpg revision guides in verbal and non verbal reasoning are so popular.
Yes. Kids can be tutored in English and maths.
State schools don't cover verbal reasoning. They don't want to know that they may have clever kids in there. I am more than willing to bet that there are some kids who aren't performing well in primary school who would ace the verbal and non reasoning tests - because they are naturally clever.
Private tutors can help to familiarise students with non verbal reasoning. They can't actually teach someone to be clever.
For the un-initiated, the tests involve shapes and sequences and stuff. Some jobs use them as part of the interview process.
Many private schools use them too. Often, hundreds and hundreds of kids sir the entrance exam for selective schools. Most of them will fail. Often they will fail because of their lack of reasoning powers. One of the reasons that grammars were so unpopular was because working class kids passed the 11+. They were clever. Middle class kids often failed. Mummy and daddy didn't like that at all. How dare wc kids be clever.
I remember a mc friend from grammar inviting me home for cucumber sandwiches and afternoon tea. Even as an 11 year old I knew her mother was looking down on me. I can remember her asking me if my daddy owned a car? I took great pleasure in telling her that he owned more than one, together with the makes of car he owned. Mc mummy only drove an old banger. It was a bit like that scene from Pretty woman.

Incredibly common in the rural disadvantaged area I live in.

Parents saying just that - you don’t need exams to milk cows.

Parents thinking their 16 yo school leaver can ‘just get a job as an electrician, that’s what I did’, then discovering actually, no, you need an apprenticeship which are like gold dust here.

My DS is just about to start his GCSEs, and he hears this all the time from peers and their parents.

I'm also 38 and had EAL lessons for the first year or two of primary school...I remember being taken to a little room and having lessons with a couple of other kids where a teacher showed us flash cards. I suppose it probably depended the local authority/how much spare funding they had.

There's another threat ATM worrying about AI, I wonder how it will affect things once the MC parents start pushing their DC into the trades...maybe they will become really competitive academically to get into college courses? (As more kids competing for places)

One of the reasons that grammars were so unpopular was because working class kids passed the 11+. They were clever. Middle class kids often failed. Mummy and daddy didn't like that at all. How dare wc kids be clever

Were grammar schools unpopular? And with whom?
They were very popular when I was a child and still very popular now in the areas that still have them.

I don’t understand your statement that working class kids passed but middle class often failed. What has class got to do with it in this sense?
You can argue that those with the drive and money maybe more like to pass if they can buy books and tutoring but just being a particular class?

State schools do not want to know they have clever children… we had 11+ lessons at my state school all those years ago, the whole class got them. Not sure what happens now as we don’t have grammars in our area.

I have no doubt that you experienced snobbery but it does sound like you have a chip on your shoulder - I don’t know the relevance of cucumber sandwiches but I am guessing it is meant to set the scene.

'Disadvantaged' isn't the same as WWCB. DS had a contextualised offer to an RG based on our postcode which is classed as 'disadvantaged'. We're not WC. His friends had similar offers; they are neither W nor WC. 'Disadvantaged' is too broad a designation to target the group we're talking about so they are further disadvantaged.

Nope. I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I didn't realise that my family was working class. My dad worked very long hours and ran his own business. We were wealthier than our contemporaries.
I probably remember the incident because it was the first time in my life that anyone had looked down on me.
Middle class mummy made assumptions about my family because we lived about 3 miles from the grammar school, not within walking distance.
The cucumber sandwiches were a symbol of genteel afternoon tea from Middle class mummy. My mum would probably have provided a cup of tea and biscuits after school. We never ate cucumber sandwiches.

Grammar schools were very popular with those who passed 11+ and their parents.
They were unpopular with people who had failed the 11+, especially those from the 'Middle class' who considered themselves a cut above others. They were mortified when their kids failed. A lot of kids at my grammar had irish parents. This was at a time when the Irish were still looked down upon. Grammar schools were unpopular with labour politicians of the time. They didn't want people to get on in life through education. Though many Labour mps were grammar school educated. They kicked away the ladder to success for others. They were abolished through spite and envy. Much like the present labour government wants to destroy private education. They do not want parental choice.
There was the unfair stereotype that grammar school students were stuck up and posh. Just watch the musical Blood Brothers. It just hammers home left wing stereotypes. One of my favourite musicals btw.
The remaining grammars and private schools are very popular. Parents want the best for their kids. I'm sure that, given parental choice, grammar schools could return. Bridget phillipson has no intention whatsoever in letting parents have a say in their kids education- just read the sen parents comments on mumsnet.
I had forgotten technical colleges. One of my cousins went to technical college. He went on to university and an MBA.

@Jammibats These countries don't all have a comprehensive welfare system like the UK. In my parents home country there aren't benefits available like here, no UC top up or housing benefit.

If you lose your job, you better find another one and/or have decent savings or a relative abroad who can support you. This is why education is so valued because it gives you access to more stable, higher paid, professional jobs.

In my kids school, so many able white wc parents don't work or work p/t to qualify for full benefits. There isn't the drive to improve themselves, benefits are there to help people in a difficult situation.

I want to move into a specific industry so I've got a casual wkend job to get further experience. I've had eye rolls from the parents at school, they don't understand why I'd want to do it. They don't understand that the experience I get now from this new job will open up jobs where I can earn £££ in a few years time.

Middle class mummy made assumptions about my family because we lived about 3 miles from the grammar school, not within walking distance.
The cucumber sandwiches were a symbol of genteel afternoon tea from Middle class mummy. My mum would probably have provided a cup of tea and biscuits after school. We never ate cucumber sandwiches

No chip?

I do agree with your opinion on the current Labour stance on education.

Whilst in theory on UC people are better off working, if you have never worked working 16 hours a week for an extra £200 a month seems like far too much hassle for little gain.
Everyday issues have been pathologized too. I just listened to the radio 4 programme and one of the reasons given as to why wwc girls are falling behind is that they are taking on more responsibility at home. One interviewee was saying that both her parents work 9-5 so she hasn't got anyone at home for her when she gets in, so has to "look after the house" until her mum comes in. That's fairly standard to have 2 parents working 9-5?

I find the postcode thing crazy. Near me there is a road with large houses around a quarter of them are lived in by one family (so obviously wealthy) half are split into small flats and another quarter are homeless shelters and bed and breakfasts with homeless people in them.