to believe a "stranger" over my son about abuse

[QuaintAquaTraybake]

DS (he is 21) has always been difficult, as has my relationship with him. He was a challenging child and then a challenging teenager. The behavior he displayed in his early to mid teens ranged from mild acting out (silly fights, occasionally skipping classes to smoke with older boys) to stealing, lying and manipulating his family and others. DH and I did what we felt was best for him as parents. The whole lot, therapy, counseling, "consistency consistency consistency". We felt things were improving at one point in his late teens,as he approached the prospect of going to university and doing his own thing, but now I feel we may simply have been blind to it, or he became better at hiding this mean streak, who knows.

He was in a relationship with a young woman, who I'll refer to as A (24) for convenience, for nearly two years. I have grown very fond of A. She reminds me a great deal of myself at her age. Big dreams but like everyone does she has her struggles. Notably, low self worth. I was very much the same. The only difference between her and I is I had a loving family when I was struggling. A has only had my son, and by extension, us.
Two weeks ago A turned up at our house in tears. DH and I took her in and tried to comfort her as best we could, but she begged us not to let DS know. She also wouldn't say what was going on, at least until my husband had gone to bed. Once it was just the two of us she told me everything.

What she has told me, and what I saw for myself, the cigarette burns on her arms and thighs, bruises, marks, it is awful. He would lock her in their dresser for hours, humiliate her in various ways over trivial disagreements... I cried hearing it and seeing it. I have told DS I want nothing to do with him unless he tells us the truth. DS, however, insists things are not as she describes them. To cut a very long story short, he claims their relationship was healthy and what she calls abuse now are "kinky activities" which she willingly agreed to throughout their two years together. For example, he admits he did indeed put cigarettes out on her, "lightly" beat her when they were intimate, engaged in "degrading acts" because "she likes it, we both like it."

So now DS and I are not speaking, and DH and I are completely at odds. DH refuses to entertain the thought our son could/would/has done something so vile. And he has told me outright he is ashamed of me for taking "some stranger's" claims over those of our own flesh and blood. I tell him why I believe her, he says there is no hard evidence. I say well my own eyes are hard evidence, the bruises and marks I saw on that girl are NOT the result of an ordinary couple engaging in consensual sex, those are not signs of mutual sexual pleasure. And that if he truly believes otherwise he should join DS in seeking out some professional help.

We barely speak two words to each other now. Him sleeping on the couch, me hiding in the bedroom. My question is, am I really so wrong? Am I projecting my own trauma onto someone else and refusing to see the truth. I suppose, I wonder, if you were me, what would you do?

I'm really sorry you find yourself in this situation @QuaintAquaTraybake . It makes such a refreshing change to hear a mum who is honest and realistic about her really difficult son. There are so many mums who deflect, minimise, make excuses, blame the woman etc etc. I'm sorry to hear that they've reconciled. It's probably not too surprising as the girlfriend sounds vulnerable and has very little support apart from you.

In your shoes, I think I would make myself a bit distant, neutral and unavailable. Of course don't get involved in your son's fictitious narrative for his abuse. It sounds like your H is an abuse apologist and wants to status quo restored. I would keep distance from all of them, your H included. Just quietly let the girlfriend know you're still there for her. I am full of respect for you 💐

Sorry for the PS, OP, but I have to ask if your H is also abusive to you, either overtly or covertly? You sound very aware, but your son is highly abusive and your H sees no problem with it. Are you safe? Do you want to say something about your situation?

I would believe her.

OP did I read it right that A came to you and begged you not to tell your son, then you went straight to your son and confronted him?

Maybe next time signpost her to support and help her cut contact without giving him opportunity and ammunition to ramp up the pressure?

You have no reason to apologize.
Before I met my H, I was in a deeply mentally abusive "relationship" for about a year that wrecked not only my self worth but many of my friendships and very nearly the connection I had with my mother. My ex was a total narcissist who would isolate me from her, as "she only wants to drive a wedge between us". I left him when he put his hands on me the first time, never looked back. Went on to meet H and it took me time to relay to him what I had gone through... though he suspected my wariness came from experiences I had had.

Which of course makes my disappointment in him in these circumstances much greater. Knowing my history with abusive men I would've hoped he'd be, at the very least, sensitive, or understanding, about the feelings I have. But no. I don't think he has even considered that this all is personal to me. And that I may see in A a girl in a similar situation, without the loving family I had back then to support me when I came running back.

To answer your question, though, I am safe. My H is not abusive in any way. Never has been.

The abused do often return to abusers for many complex reasons ....
This pattern will repeat itself until she has had enough or he harms her more seriously than he already has.
I feel sorry for her and you.
I feel disgust for him and your DH.

I asked him how A was doing a few days later and when he lied, saying she was OK, I told him I knew she had not been at their apartment for some days and that I was aware of something happening. I did not confront him, not really, simply offered him a chance to come clean. He denied any problems, "A is fine, she's been a bit sick, but it'll be OK". As if. H was the one to tell him the story A had shared with me, which had DS calling me incessantly, showing up at our door, insisting it is all lies, taken out of context.

Looking back, perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut, but it is too late now. And H would have told him anyway, I suspect. That is how things are.

Encourage her to report this to The Police. This needs to stop and you son be referred to the appropriate mental health services otherwise he'll eventually end up killing someone.

If you want to save your marriage I do think the GF needs to stop using you for support though and seek that from her own family.

It's difficult, but I would try and get her to engage with a DV specialist and to try and keep conversations with A and with your son separate.

He could punish her for talking to you or manipulate her into taking responsibility for your being unhappy with him.

She definitely needs professional help on multiple levels.

Thanks for explaining your history and the situation. This must be hitting you really hard. People who try and sit on the fence around abuse can do great harm, as you know. It's also obviously very damaging to your son to have a parent who colludes with his abuse. I hope you have proper support, but if you don't, please consider finding a therapist for yourself. You're between a rock and a hard place here.

Tell the police. Let them decide who’s telling the truth. (She is btw)

Your son needs punishing for what he has done.

Thanks for agreeing! I did give my views on the thread itself further up but felt rude to ignore a previous poster’s direct question. At least I try to avoid being rude.

Nothing to worry about. I am sorry that poster was rude to you and I hope you have a great day. x

By the sounds of it - Both your DS and A have serious “issues”.

We all just have to cross fingers and pray this pair don’t fall pregnant. Because that would be a horror show

I agree it is more likely, I’m just saying I would want to be sure.

OP do you feel you should get support.
Forgive me but you DS seems dangerous for A.
She is vulnerable with low self esteem she may feel the need to tolerate this.
DH is on the wrong side of this issue and rather than seeing DS always in the right he needs to open his eyes.
I believe you need to document what she told you, what you saw, how it made you feel, what advice you gave and keep this very safe as it may be needed.

i have a lot. Including being abused by a man in front of his parents - including being left locked in a room while they sat downstairs reading the newspapers pretending they couldn’t hear what was happening. They came to let me out after he was out for an hour. so I totally get what you mean And that is why I did specify purposefully that it is a tricky one specifically around going to his parents because it isn’t always cut and dry, but it still warrants pause for thought. Especially because his mother clearly does not just ‘always forgive him’. And the mother says she believes a lot of it was sexual between them.

my point anyway is that her son is abusive, she needs to focus her energies there not on the girl.

Even if what he were saying were true, there are limits to what a person can consent to. And “consenting” to that kind of abuse would be indicative of serious mental illness. A depressed person can “consent” to be murdered in lieu of suicide. A self-harming person could consent for someone else to cut them. It wouldn’t matter, because such consent would have no legal force. So even if everything is exactly as your son says, and your husband believes, your son is still an abuser.

I think now they’re back together, it’s more complicated. I’m sure he’s still abusive and horrible but realistically the police probably wouldn’t take this very far if the victim claims she consented and is in a relationship with the perpetrator. Hopefully she will eventually wise up before he does her very serious harm. I’d be gutted if a child of mine turned out this way but given how many awful men like this there are out there, there’s probably a fair few gutted mums around.

Yes, there are issues on both sides of this unfortunate relationship that has sadly been rekindled.
A got in touch and has explained there is truth to DS' claims, they were indeed involved in an "unconventional" - as she calls it - dynamic in which my son would act out fantasies of hers and his both. Yes, including the cigarette and urination thing. According to A they argued because DS overstepped that night and she started seeing what they had done and what she had agreed to differently, but now, apparently, she feels as though she overreacted and does not want to give up on a "good thing". So, in short, she is back with him, and has spent the past two days and nights at their apartment.
I tried to reason with her but she has assured me this is what she wants "and needs", so. What more can I do? I've heard of stuff like this happening but hoped this story would be a different one. Alas.
H is obnoxious about all this, of course.

You and your husband have a an unhappy and messed up marriage

You and your son have an unhappy and messed up relationship

your son and A have an unhappy, messed up and bloody disturbing relationship.

All you can do is encourage A to never come off contraception

This really rings true to me. You don't seem to know your son, and he sounds very unhappy and like he has some serious mental health issues. His girlfriend has serious mental health issues too, they really cannot get pregnant. They seem to have a very toxic relationship based on these messed up mental issues and are very very unhealthy for eachother. This kind of thing doesn't come out of nowhere though, you would have seen darker signs of a mental health issue for a long time, surely.

You also sound hell bent on saving her, and being all in on helping her, and hell bent on only seeing the bad in your son even though the girlfriend has now taken him back. I can see why your DH might take exception with that black and white thinking which is also a very weird dynamic. Dont get me wrong, theres some very disturbing activities going on by your son, and his girlfriend also, Im not defending that, it just comes across very strange.

Do you think he grew up with a healthy relationship with you?

if your "fantasies" include burning someone with a cigarette or being burned with a cigarette you need professional psychiatric help!
If you consent to being abused and assaulted you need help.
Im sorry A is staying with her abuser (there are complex reasons for that)
I feel sorry for her and for you because this will escalate and its only a matter of time before something even more horrendous and life changing happens here.
I understand you are powerless in this matter. All you can do is signpost both to professional help as that may prevent a catastrophic event.

Have caught up with thread. Honestly, I feel pity for OP.

DS and A sound like they have their own psychological problems, which complicates how to interpret their relationship.

But multiple truths can exist. Both DS and a are vulnerable, that seems true.

The behaviour you son showed to A is abusive. That is true also.

Why it all happened is incredibly hard to unpick and probably needs professionals.

But it happened. Something that could be a crime happened.

My opinion is simple, if you take out all the back story, there is a woman with cigarette burns on her.

That is objective. That is the only fact you need to know. That is the reason you posted here in the first place.

A might be lying. She could have done it to herself. Your son certainly is lying. All of that is guess work though and none of us are detectives, its not our role to interpret.

I repeat, you physically saw a woman with cigarette burns on her.

I think your next step should be to ignore everything written on here, including by myself, and talk to Refuge (0808 2000 247). Speak to a professional, see what they think.

He will escalate now. This what they do. She has given him another inch and he will take a yard.

There's nothing OP can do. They are consenting adults with agency.

She has to look her son in the eye at some point presumably. What a nightmare.