Violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors

[Hamalam]

The part that struck me about the Southport findings was the way AR seems to have been given leeway because he had an ASD diagnosis. Oh he’s carrying a knife and a hockey stick but he has ASD, as if that’s ok. It’s an attitude I have met a lot with my child school, where they and other children suffer from violence meted out but other children.

Oh but they have SEND / are in care / have a bad home-life as though that’s excuses my child being a victim. I really hope that one of the lessons learned by schools, police etc is to look at the threat or the violence and the danger to others, regardless of any ‘excuses’ the perpetrator might offer.

That makes sense. So it is having an impact. He can relate the taking away to the act enough to see a link. Yes we found things took years to have an impact.

I dont think thats a shitty way to look at it. I think a lot of people dont do stuff because the consequence upsets them rather than they morally think its wrong to do it.

Completely agree.

In the last few months we’ve seen a change in how he responds to being told off. He used to just look at you like you were a 3 headed alien, but it bothers him now.

He did something destructive about a month ago, and as soon as we said “No!” he put his head down, came over all quiet and wouldn’t even move his head towards us.

I think one of the links he’s finally making is “I don’t like it when they’re cross with me.”

Which to be honest, will be a godsend.

I was almost assaulted by a massive, obese 6'3 lad at a school and when I reported it to his head of year she hit me with the 'he has a bad home life' okay, you cow, me too. Now what? Very glad I left that shit school.

I grew up in the era of it being common to be smacked at home, by your grand parents and at school, for bad behaviour. Like it or not it did work. I was never smacked for the same thing twice!

Agree with pp the segue to radiator response isn’t what’s needed.

When you describe the violent behaviour here people would like dc not to be at the receiving end of it.

And why should they be?

EasternStandard they shouldn't. I withdrew my DC due to an out of control child in primary, youngest came home black and blue. Teachers response "he can't help it" and no doubt they couldn't help him. I'm sure that 20 years on things are much worse.

My point though stands, public opinion is often like a blade of grass blown in the direction of the wind and a snowball on a steep hill. Opinion is also often reactionary and what starts as "these children need to be educated elsewhere" can lead to "lock em up" with each new iteration moving the arguement from what is rational and reasonable to eventual consensus that radical solutions must be found. Extremist ideas do not start with bold statements, but feeds on personal grievances and experiences to build critical mass and consensus to adopt radical solutions.

Its clear to me that ALL children are being failed by this obsession to educate all children in mainstream schools. However this is coupled with some other trends such as a rise in diagnosis and a more general trend towards challenging behaviour in children who do not meet the threshold for autism or ADHD. Even though the diagnostic criteria keeps changing to mop up more children. Inequality, impoverishment, lack of opportunity, immiseration and stress within famillies, and factors like DV combined with the narcisism, entilement, greed, laziness and and factors like maternal stress leading to attachment disorders not only in looked after children but even children from MC homes has created a crisis in childhood. That is without factors such as technology and SM. It isnt so much kids on SM as it is distracted short tempered parents, stressed and anxious, over worked and highly individuated lacking time, and forsight to invest their time in their DC. Disenfranchised poorly educated individuals who are interpellated into our social sysstem no longer question their own condition, but instead think tips from tictock and some lip filler will elevate them to being like some celeb.

Lastly, its a class issue. This rise in out of control kids, angry kids, diagnosed kids, mentally ill and dangerous, or self harming and suicidal kids can be linked to rising socio-ecomic inequality. Those who make policy are unaffected by your DC having their education blighted by their cost saving. But my point remains.....without critical mass in terms of public opinion changes just simply don't fly. And we know from history that locking children up is not moral. Dangerous children do not exist in some vacum and we know that Autism is not an excuse, and that not all feral children have SENd. We also need to consider changes to the world of work driven by technology and that it matters not to the ruling class to create a 100% docile cohort at the end of their education.

In the case of AR its as clear as day that he was a huge risk. Not sure if others have mentioned this, but schizophrenia is sometimes comorbid with autism with people with ASD having 6 or 7 times more probability of having schizophrenic disorders with up to 28% of people with ASD. It is poorly understood, and many psychiatrists hessitate from giving this Dx.

I dont think just tackling SENd provision will help in the abscence of a complete change in the socio-economic, and locking children and YP up or returning to an age of institutions and cruelty is not progress. Expanding the dx criteria to pathologise social problems eventually creates the conditions whereby people are "useless eaters" and can not be rehabilitated, and an ever increasing strain on services that prevents intervention into cases like AR. But again policy makers don't give a shit until the opinions of the many align to the overall aims of those at the top and their economic agenda.

So no link to the daft ‘you want them all tied to a radiator’ photo then? As I said, the only “infamous” radiator photo I’ve seen was from Romania but has been spread round the internet saying it was in U.K./US/wherever.

But, all that’s irrelevant. Nobody here has said they want SEND children tied to radiators. Such a silly leap makes it sound like you have no argument.

@ChunkyMonkey36 What you’re doing sounds great - well done! Something simple like that can work wonders. It’s time-consuming but it can work. It’s almost impossible to implement in a mainstream school though. That’s the issue. Some children need more support and less peers than other children. Not only to keep other children safe, but to help the SEND child themselves.

If you really believe this didn't happen in the UK you are, simply, dead wrong. And the tone of your comment about that is really, really dismissive and offensive.
Ely Hospital Scandal. Look it up. There's a film too.

Oh and here's the photo. Which I imagine you won't bother to look at.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2542154219395003

You miss the point. Nobody, including me, to be crystal clear, thinks abusing SEND children in that way is good - not in the past, not now, not ever, and not anywhere.

My criticism was of the way that was used when absolutely nobody was talking about it as an attempt to shut down discussion. It was a silly, trite comment IMO.

People were talking about specialist provision rather than mainstream schools - and suddenly we’re accused of wanting to straitjacket children and chain children to radiators. As I said, stupid. And no, that’s not dismissive of the historical abuse of SEN children - but of those who use hyperbole rather than debate.

No, I addressed your sneery and dismissive "oh it never happened here" attitude. It did.
I make no argument on another ground.

You’re quite right. I didn’t look at the photo - because I’m not on FB so can’t see it. Again, you’re missing the point, and muddling two separate things. See my post above…..er, not that you’ll bother to read it, right? Is that how we do it?

I didn’t say it never happened here 🙄 I said the photo flying round the internet that most people see is of a Romanian orphanage.

So you have no argument? What do you think should happen to violent children? Do you not have an opinion? Surely you must?

You cannot be ‘sectioned’ unless you have a diagnosed mental disorder and autism without LD or another MH disorder like psychosis which he didn’t have is a not a reason you can be detained.

And this new MH Bill is now removing autism from the list of MH disorders which can lead to detention. To prevent inappropriate detentions of people with ASD. This has been opposed by many clinicians, people with ASD and their families and advocates who actually believe it should remain for some situations.

So it will be harder to detain people with ASD now.

Glad you acknowledge it.

Fucking hell. Reported.

Agreed.

My friends son was repeatedly attacked by the same boy, from primary all the way to sixth form for no reason other than the boy didn’t like him.

Excuses were always made, he has this issue or that issue. IMO I couldn’t care less what issue you have, you don’t put your hand on other people.

I am sick to death of violent people being excused from being violent. We all have the right to go about our business without being assaulted.

My point exactly. Hand wringing over the rights of bad kids and no concern whatsoever for the rights of good kids.

As a mum to a lad with milder autism - although you can see it very clearly when he’s dealing with strangers or in a strange situation - I seriously resent this acceptance of violence ‘because autism’. No, the Tate pusher did not do what he did or attacked people since because he had autism it is because he is a shit. My lad has nothing in common with these scum whatsoever.

I spent some time working in SEND schools being attacked by kids regularly. Some really don’t understand and can’t cope. Others just use it as an excuse, and the number of males who attack women only, not the male staff, out of pure sexism and misogyny is far too high. It’s learned and culturally encouraged behaviour.

To be honest est I wish AR was chained to a radiator and those little girls were alive to enjoy their life

I think the 'Right care, Right person' policy which has rolled out into virtually every police force area has a lot to answer for.

The consultant psychiatrist & specialist in assertive outreach in psychosis that was speaking at the Southport enquiry earlier today articulated that very well when he said that RCRP has seriously harmed joint working between police & mental health services.

Its also come up at the Nottingham enquiry.

It's not so much a case of letting someone get away with something because of ASD or severe mental illness but a complete system failure where complex cases are being passed between overstretched & underfunded services like a hot potato.

Glad you realised what I was actually saying.

So many parents now will find any excuse for their children's poor behaviour. In the past dress codes and behaviour in school were enforced and backed up by parents. Now children challenge uniform code and are encouraged by their parents. In the past you got your school uniform from a selected shop no deviations and hugely expensive. Now you can buy basic uniform everywhere and parents still complain. You give your children unrestricted access to mobile phones and the Internet. Your children have no respect for adults, the police their teachers or their parents. They are ferel and no one is allowed to discipline all the little princes and princesses. The world is growing quiet everyone staring at their phones. Everyone has ADHD or is on the spectrum so they are allowed to behave as if the rules dont apply to them. All boys see is violence and sexist aggressive porn. So much complaining about everything and forgetting how just 50 or 70 years ago people didnt have 1/2of what you think you deserve. It's tragic.