Violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors

[Hamalam]

The part that struck me about the Southport findings was the way AR seems to have been given leeway because he had an ASD diagnosis. Oh he’s carrying a knife and a hockey stick but he has ASD, as if that’s ok. It’s an attitude I have met a lot with my child school, where they and other children suffer from violence meted out but other children.

Oh but they have SEND / are in care / have a bad home-life as though that’s excuses my child being a victim. I really hope that one of the lessons learned by schools, police etc is to look at the threat or the violence and the danger to others, regardless of any ‘excuses’ the perpetrator might offer.

Tasers.

Blanket tasering of any and all people walking around weilding a knife.

Ideal world.

Again, here we have someone labelling the reasons for the violence. The reasons are irrelevant. He was clearly wanting to kill a child when he took a hockey stick and a knife to his former school. If the authorities had taken this remotely seriously at the time the sad consequences wouldn’t have happened as he would have been locked up.

Act on the persons deeds, not any of their other attributes.

The leader of the enquiry said AR did not have a mental health condition.

Would you want to sit in a class knowing that you are likely to be punched at random?

In my day that was every day. From teachers and other students.

They don’t, other kids are just boring collateral to the violent, aggressive.. sorry .deregulated and failed poor wee lambs..

i do wonder what would happen if we stopped such cosseting and protecting violent individuals!
. Soo Timmy has punched Julie, kicked Alfie and destroyed the class art exhibit… well y3… how can we all do better for Timmy? He’s off for an ice cream
and to play call of duty on his iPad in the heads room…when he chooses to come back to class, let’s be making sure we treat Timmy like the priority he is.

While his victims are having nightmares at night and anxiety at school, but hey as long as the bully is looked after that’s ok. I’m so sick of it.

They’ll still trying to figure out how they can blame everyone but him for his murderous actions…

But priorities! How awful are you for considering your own child’s well being! Don’t you know that they don’t matter!

Apparently a teacher n the PRU where he was raised concerns about his violent character but a member of a MH team accused her of racially stereotyping him as a black boy with a knife and her concerns were ignored. A lot of teachers in secondary schools will recognise this, avoid the slightest hint of any racial reaction at the expense of the rest of the school.

Very depressing that ALL children are being let down by failing systems and poor parenting, lack of funding and multiple levels of deprivation/and disadvantage.

I have worked with children in care many of whom had multiple complex Dx of mental health conditions and developmental disorder, all had attachment disorder. It was difficult to distinguish between severe early trauma and mild ASD traits. There is a growing interest in the sociological/psychological model of ADHD and how maternal stress in pregnancy, and parental stresses might contribute to a child having a Dx of ADHD. One child was described by his therapist as Psychopathic.Most self harmed, head banged, threw furniture, inflicted harm upon other children, assaulted staff, made threats to kill. Despite all of this I felt optimistic that some of the YP would make some progress in their lives and have some prospect of an ordinary life. For the record, we didn't use harsh punishments either, its been proven ineffectual and counterproductive. Instead we focused on emotional and physical containment, relationships, and empathy- the child needed to experience empathy for them to start to develop empathy, and this came from a place of understanding the need to rely on others. Its based on trust. If people mean boundaries by the word discipline-fair do, but if they mean punishing a confused child, an overwhelmed child, or a child that may be subject to abuse and neglect at home/in another setting then .....NO.

What is also depressing is reading some of the comments on this thread.

"They don’t, other kids are just boring collateral to the violent, aggressive.. sorry .deregulated and failed poor wee lambs.."

Autistic kids tied to a radiator is an infamous black and white photo of two children tied to a radiator in a hospital for "mentally handicapped children" Look it up. There is also a black and white film showing a day in the life of "subnormal children in long term hospital care" which is very chilling. I have seen it but I can't find a link on you tube.

Here are some links, hopefully a very quick read over some of the history of institutionalized care for children with SEND and the history of how children with SEND have been thought of and treated in our very recent past will put recent thinking into perspective.

https://university.open.ac.uk/health-and-social-care/research/shld/timeline-learning-disability-history

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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/experts-demand-major-overhaul-of-safeguarding-system-to-protect-children-with-disabilities-from-abuse-at-childrens-homes

^"It is often assumed that the defeat of Hitler’s Germany ushered in an assertion of universal human value. But the 1944 Education Act, one of the most cherished achievements of the postwar welfare state, divided children into two distinct groups: the “educable” and the “ineducable”. Schools for the “educationally subnormal” were established for those on the borderline, but a small cohort was rejected as not worth the trouble. Their destiny was to live in overcrowded “long-stay hospitals” for the rest of their lives, ignored and almost entirely forgotten." https://www.stephenunwin.uk/thoughts-and-provocations/2026/2/16/no-child-is-ineducable^

Maybe the 2001 SEND Act was a cynical money saving experiment, or maybe it came about in response to changes in the way we view children with SEND. Either way we are still failing ALL children. It really is one of those failures of liberal thinking that overlooks the fact that the rights of individuals often conflict and true equality does not exist as soon as you choose to privilege the rights of one group/individual over those of another.

I was bullied out of a club by someone with mental health problems. I was told "you know what he's like". I didn't because no one warned me. I was blamed for him being sectioned. I got to the stage where I couldn't care less about him because he couldn't grasp how I was affected. I was having my own struggles.

I was then informed he'd left because of how other people were reacting to his behaviour

He was treated like a victim and it was everyone else's fault

Of course, that's right. But there are plenty of stopping off places between bully and murder--- anti-social behaviour, assault, threats, stalking, domestic violence, robber, rape, GBH and plenty of others.

I think the bottom line is that it has to be accepted that neuro diversity is not an excuse for violent behaviour in schools. If one child is being violent in class then he is the one out of step and 30 other children should not be in fear and in danger because of it.

Some posters get excited and shout do you want them chained to a radiator?

No. Once again, there are plenty of stopping off places between doing nothing and chaining him to a radiator-corporal punishment (this often works-like it or not-) special school, taking him off the school register and leaving him in the home; police involvement and youth detention

Society cannot continue to leave children and staff at risk because some kid is neuro diverse. It should only come into play for his educational needs and never ever be cited as an excuse for disruptive or violent behaviour.

At the very least, this attitude should be tried because the attitude we have at the moment only benefits the culprit.

Yes. Completely frustrating as a mum of a “good kid” who was given strong boundaries at home over behaviour then saw kids getting away with severe bullying, assault and worse at school. Its ridiculous.

I attend Adult Safeguarding meetings, so not children, but I can see where some of these issues arise.

There's a massive issue, with NHS mental health teams in particular, where no one wants to take responsibility for something because they are all over stretched. So no one will take on the task of making a referral to something "because that's not my remit" etc and you just end up going around in circles.

It normally takes one angel in a service to stand up and say "yeah I'll do that even though I'm not really supposed to because we don't cover that area / line of work".

It's really frustrating.

The disctinction between ASD, trauma etc is useful for treating the child, but the treatment needs to happen away from school and the child returned ONLY when they are proven to be able to act consistently in a non-violent way.

I have some personal experience of being a parent of a violent child with ASD. It was absolutely hideous. The shame and embarrassment I felt at my child's behaviour was huge. There were times that I was scared for myself and for my other children. He was excluded from multiple schools for his behaviour, although none of it was at the level of AR.

I knew that my child's behaviour was a result of his very complex needs not being met, but this is not an excuse. His behaviour was unacceptable.

He spent long periods out of school and once a school was found for him it was not really suitable, but it was the only option.

There were times I feared he may end up in prison.

Fortunately for my child, and for us, we were able to support him. We did not have financial worries. We spoke English as a first language. We were able to engage with services (although they were frequently useless). We have a supportive wider family. We limited access to the internet. It has been incredibly hard work but we were in a privileged position to be able to put on that work.

My son is now settled, doing A Levels, hoping to go to university. He is no longer violent. This is in no thanks to the education system which let him down massively, or the social workers that refused to help us.

AR's parents should have stepped in, as we did, to manage their son's behaviour. But they were probably very vulnerable themselves, refugees from a war torn country, probably not speaking English as a first language, etc.

Incidentally I have also been the parent of another child who has suffered at the hands of aggressive children in primary school for whom every excuse was made and the behaviour was not dealt with.

In truth, I think there’s something in that.

My is autistic, and attends a SENd school. He is non verbal and has severe cognitive impairment; so doesn’t necessarily have “intent,” but when in crisis he can be volatile. Mainly with known adults rather than children.

He is taught, actively, that aggression is an absolute non-negotiable and there are consequences. Loss of iPad time, trampolining cancelled, etc etc. It’s difficult because he doesn’t fully understand consequences, but the effort is there.

When we’ve had a rough weekend, we tell school that any suggestion of the same behaviour there and we’ll come and collect him. I’ve heard others say the same.

The kids I’m referring to are at maybe the other end of the “scale” in terms of autism/need (AR isn’t non-verbal for a start), but I don’t use my sons disability as an excuse for aggressive behaviour and do at least put the effort into preventing others from dealing with it, so it’s not unreasonable to expect others to do the same.

It’s not lost on me that this surge of violent behaviour has started since we made smacking illegal.

Disclaimer: I have never smacked my kids, and don’t see it as the first line of discipline. But in the same way violent men won’t attack bigger even more violent men, I doubt kids would continue to knock 10 bells out of their parents if they did the same back in vigorous self defence.

But you sound responsible, doing the best for your boy in difficult circumstances.

I wish voices like yours were louder, more listened to and drowned out those who think that violent children must be accommodated, no matter the cost to other children and staff.

The fact remains that he did not have a mental health disorder. You cannot be ‘sectioned’ unless you have a diagnosed mental disorder and autism without LD or another MH disorder like psychosis which he didn’t have is a not a reason you can be detained.

I have no idea what mental health services are supposed to do with people who would not be helped in any way by being medicated because they don’t have a treatable mental disorder and nor would they engage in therapy.

Being admitted to a MH hospital for a condition for which there is no treatment is just short term containment. This is not comparable to the Nottingham killer Valdo Calocane who had a treatable disorder (schizophrenia) and services were rightly heavily criticised for not treating it. In this case I don’t know what people are expecting MH services to actually do here as there seem to be no viable treatment options.

His behaviour was criminal. It ought to have been treated as such and he ought not to have avoided prison (youth detention) for his prior acts because of his autism or whatever else. Why was he not locked up for the hockey stick attack and for carrying a weapon in public.

There are a number of similar cases of autistic young men with violent ideas and behaviours fuelled by the internet and society need to figure out a way to stop this happening again. See also Jonny Braverman who threw a child off the Tate and Nicholas Prosper who killed his family and planned a school shooting.

I agree with your sentiment that you have to deal with the aggressive behaviour. I have a child that was aggressive and now isnt because we focused on it and dealt with it. He is more able than your child.

We took a similar stance of picking him up from his special school if he was beginning to struggle as we felt it was setting him up to fail and it wasnt right to risk someone being injured. We got a huge amount of pushback from the LA on this as attendance is king but I really feel leaving a child in a situation which is triggering a meltdown is cruel all round.

But the bit im curious about is the punishments he doesnt understand. Are they having any impact on reducing volitile events if he doesn't know they relate to the volitile events and he isnt able to form intent? You say the effort is there but is it effort on the right thing. If he doesnt know the lack of ipad is because he did something agressive and if he doesnt think if i do this i wont get the ipad so i better not do it, im not sure how it works.

I don’t believe we should teach children not to hit people, by hitting them. We’ve never used it in our house and I’d throw my partner out if he did.

But I also think the challenge with that is eventually our children outgrow us, or are more strong.

I grew up in a working class area of the NE, my mum is a “smacker,” and was with all of us.

My brother has mental health needs, and between 18-22 was violent towards all us at points.

He’s a 6ft2 bloke who goes to the gym, my mum and stepdad stood absolutely no chance - and my sister and I even less.

Our only real course of action was to either leave the house or get him to, and call the police.

You know what happens if you are that ‘angel’? Everyone else fucks off and leaves you to deal with something that you have no treatment for and says oh MH services are dealing with it. This is why I have learnt the hard way not to involve myself in things that are not my remit and I cannot fix because all you will get is blamed.

I think the police are mainly to blame for AR and the people excusing his clearly criminal behaviour with a spurious MH label. It happens all the time that people who either are or claim to be mentally ill get away with behaviour that noone else would. It’s not the fault of overstretched services. It’s the fault of the person concerned in most cases and personal responsibility should be more of a thing.

Before anyone thinks I am mean and unkind I really enjoy treating mental illness and making people better but I do not enjoy being made responsible for all social ills that in fact have nothing to do with psychiatry in its narrow definition.

This may be a shitty way for us to look at it, but through us using those methods for a long time, he has began to learn.

He gets upset when he loses access to one of us, for example, so we do a lot of “if you hit, I’m leaving the room,” and then we do. He gets upset when his iPad is removed, not because he’s remorseful, but because he wants his iPad.

He doesn’t try and avoid things that are “wrong,” he doesn’t understand “wrong,” but he does try and avoid things that upset him, because that’s how he’s motivated.

At 6 years old he was tearing our house apart, I had to peel him off my partners back quite regularly. We haven’t had anything to that level for a long time, and his aggression levels generally are much lower.

It has taken about 3 years to get even to this point, but it isn’t because he’s discovered remorse, it’s because he doesn’t like being upset and very gradually has learned that I will upset him to stop him from biting people.

This, the guilt tripping of Autistic kids tied to a radiator is an infamous black and white photo of two children tied to a radiator in a hospital for "mentally handicapped children" Look it up. There is also a black and white film showing a day in the life of "subnormal children in long term hospital care" which is very chilling. I have seen it but I can't find a link on you tube.
why does that get trotted out when posters talk about their child regularly being assaulted at school, have any of those posters said they want the violent child chained to radiators?
or have they just said they want their child to be safe, but are just being shouted down and told how awful they are?