Violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors

[Hamalam]

The part that struck me about the Southport findings was the way AR seems to have been given leeway because he had an ASD diagnosis. Oh he’s carrying a knife and a hockey stick but he has ASD, as if that’s ok. It’s an attitude I have met a lot with my child school, where they and other children suffer from violence meted out but other children.

Oh but they have SEND / are in care / have a bad home-life as though that’s excuses my child being a victim. I really hope that one of the lessons learned by schools, police etc is to look at the threat or the violence and the danger to others, regardless of any ‘excuses’ the perpetrator might offer.

The problem are radicalised boys who have been allowed unfettered access to screens for years, the parents allowing it because it gives them a nice quiet life. Then all hell breaks loose when they realise their child is not only damaged but dangerous, to themselves and others. It starts with the parents.

But you’re not wrong, once this has happened the inevitable ASD diagnosis is given and trotted out every time they do something awful or hurt somebody.

We already have hordes of grown men blaming their violence and domestic abuse on ADHD - this is about to get a whole lot worse.

How do you stop them?

I remember when my grandson was in primary school, one boy was violent several times. Not only punching other kids, but also throwing furniture around, and he was allowed to stay in the class because apparently 'he came from a troubled home'.

God knows where he is now (he will be an adult) or how his behaviour has progressed.

Young offenders institute. Sectioned. Pupil Refferal Unit. All things which are currently being shied away from now on the basis of cost. People need to be protected. Money needs to be spent.

I agree. We have begun to normalise antisocial behaviour in children and this will eventually lead to a breakdown in our society as these children grow up into violent and lawless adults.
The behaviour shouldn’t be accepted. Schools should not be trying to deal with them because it adversely affects the other children in many ways (disruptive education or physical assault).
I don’t know what the solution is in a society where there is no money, but something needs to change.

I think it’s also contributing to school refusal and mental health conditions in children. Would you want to sit in a class knowing that you are likely to be punched at random?

Sectioned?

I think there’s a line when once it is crossed race and neurodivergence shouldn’t come into it. If a person is dangerous that should be the end of it- and action needs to be taken.

The cause of the behaviour is relevant of course but only in so far as it might determine what treatment/ care is necessary, not to excuse it.

But yes I am sick of the complete failure of authorities to take appropriate action and to properly organise themselves, take tough decisions, stand up to bullies, share information and work together, to stop this sort of thing happening. In this day and age where everyone has computers/email/ AI there’s no excuse for it. Not just in this case but also the terrible stabbings in Nottingham. Of course in AR’s case the parental failings were huge too, but that’s when the authorities should be there as a safety net. I honestly think Chat GPT would have done a better job.

There are parents desperate for help with their violent DC but SS don’t step in and help due to finding.

Are you happy to pay more tax/NI/Council Tax?

Personally I am but I often feel like a minority in that on MN.

Well yes. This boy should clearly have been sectioned long before he murdered the little girls. The Public Enquiry has in fact indicated this. He couldn't have looked or behaved in a more psychotic way if he tried, and it had been going on for years with numerous agencies involved.

But now the taxpayer has to look after AR for 52 years at 60k per year, plus the cost of all the policing around the aftermath. Doh.

Agreed that often the families are desperate for help and not getting any. VC’s family tried to flag the danger he posed many times but it fell on deaf ears.

I’d pay more tax to live in a society where are children are protected from violence. This is a huge issue here in Scotland. Huge! It cannot be left to get any worse.

It’s not just getting help but systemic failure and looking away. The police taking him back home when found with a knife, smiling as he said what he wanted to do. The headteacher asked not to stereotype.

Everyone pushing away chances to intercept.

I remember contacting my eldest son’s school because a boy he did PE with had started charging at him while he was half dressed and ramming him up the backside with two pointed forefingers, among other ‘hi jinx’. It happened a few times before my son told me. The first thing the head of year said to me was ‘Oh, I know X. I should just make you aware that he’s statemented’. Eh? What’s that got to do with the price of fish? He was effectively sexually assaulting my child. I have a younger son with a Statement of Educational Needs and he doesn’t go around ramming his fingers up people’s arses. I didn’t answer and just let the silence hang there until he bloody well caught himself on and stuttered his way through what would be done next. I have no time for special needs being used as an excuse for violent behaviour. I get why the behaviour might happen, but it is not up to other children to simply endure it.

I think you need to get in there early. We have violent, anti-social children in my primary school. Some have something wrong with them beyond the help of the school, but many of them could be helped - if we were allowed to. All the children I’m thinking of are below the age of 8.

Instead, these children are indulged and tiptoed around, and rarely receive any punishment at all. In fact, not only do they not receive punishment, they sometimes receive rewards or misplaced ‘sympathy’ instead of the guidance they need. This isn’t doing them any favours as their behaviour becomes worse and nobody wants to be near them - so they get angry and it all becomes a vicious circle.

I think we need less ‘tolerance’ of aberrant behaviour. Then for the very small number of children who need specialist help because they have other/serious issues, we need to step in quickly once this becomes apparent and provide the appropriate support.

The saddest thing about it all is that there are likely hundreds/ thousands of ARs out there, and hundreds/ thousands of families of people like AR who are seeking help, but none is coming. They won't all go on to murder of course, but they're being seriously let down by the authorities regardless. But people generally are not in favour of increasing taxes to support overwhelmed services, so these incidents will continue.

I don't think ASD was an excuse for what he did. But his unsupported ASD was clearly a direct cause, particularly when the family had been crying out for help. Like many thousands of others are.

I understand what you're saying, op. But what is the solution? Where do these kids go and who pays for it? Because not all of it stems from parenting failure. Systems are also not fit for purpose. It's systemic failure.

As a society we have all tolerated piss poor behaviour from certain children from certain families (I remember them from school and I am 42 now!).
It shouldn't matter what label/diagnosis you have, if you cannot behave in a socially appropriate fashion you should not be allowed free reign to be behaving however you fancy.
I do believe it is time to bring back well managed group homes for people unable to function properly amongst the general population. The push to have every one out in the community is the cause of much of the issues we have now.
I don't expect this to be a popular opinion though.

Agree 100%. A friend of mine works in Forensic CAMHS. She has 15 AR’s on her caseload. She has no idea which of the 15 is going to kill at any point.

If the Greens get power, it will get worse as they plan to close all the prisons. What will they do with AR then?

No it hasn't. There was no mental illness and he did not meet the criteria to be sectioned. The Public Inquiry has pointed out that many of his actions were dismissed because of his autism and pointed out that there is gap in how we treat violent fixated individuals who do not have terrorist ideology

A trip to Cafe Nero and a therapeutic gardening session I expect.

Not the UK but...

I'm a primary school teacher. We have had several children who can become violent and dysregulated. I have had to evacuate classes becaise a child is throwing chairs/tables/scissors. I have been hit, kicked and bitten. The school has sought support from every possible agency. The Local Authority does not allow exclusions for violent behaviour if the student has SEND. "Experts" will come in to advise us who usually tell us to give them a visual timetable as if that will solve everything. Eventually they will usually get an EHCP, but it takes years and then will often state that a mainstream school can meet their needs. If the parents don't want specialist provision there is zero chance of getting it

The report into the Southport killings was correct in that agencies just try to bump as many cases as possible onto someone else. Endless referrals that take forever and go nowhere. I have personal experience with my own autistic DC with mental health difficulties. It's like different agencies fight between themselves not to have to be the one who takes responsibility.

It starts earlier. Kids should not be allowed mobile phones with unlimited apps like YouTube. School discipline policies at primary level need to label bad behaviour more clearly not just “therapeutic” nonsense about “big feelings”. There must be consequences, discipline, structure, respect and rules.

Parents need to stop letting kids off and allowing them to be violent little screen addicts but you can’t police inside the home so the only way is to limit what kids can see on screen

My children’s primary schools punishment of choice is hot chocolate and cosy chats with the head. It’s as effective as you’d expect it to be and things just keep getting worse.