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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Now that America are the baddies what sort of world order are we going for

175 replies

CurdinHenry · 12/04/2026 19:44

Surely we can drum up something positive

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WishingIwasyoungerandslimmer · 13/04/2026 05:23

BrinkWomanship · 13/04/2026 01:14

For shame indeed! How dare Israel defend itself and try to de-arm its attackers? Perhaps it should just roll over and allow itself to be wiped out from the river to the sea, eh?

Genocide is a very specific crime requiring intent to destroy a people. Israel is fighting a war against Hamas, not trying to eliminate Gazans. Just saying a genocide is happening doesn’t make it so. Innocents die in war. It’s a terrible thing. Hamas gets a boon from death statistics because not only do martyrs die for its cause but also it tries to make Israel look bad for fighting Hamas to naive people in the west. Looks like their plan worked.

Again, I am certain about who the baddies are and China and Russia’s buddy Iran is undoubtedly the baddie.

Many, many reputable organisations around the world have stated that the Israeli government's actions in Gaza constitute genocidal intent.

Israel dealt out extreme collective punishment to the Gazan people for the actions of Hamas. That is certainly not moral or have you decided on a widely different interpretation of the word to others?

So, with their backers the USA, they have now started an illegal war in Iran and for good measure also decided to use the Gaza playback on their neighbour Lebanon and lay waste to a growing area of that country.

Israel, with a population of circa 9 million, has a disproportionately toxic presence to other countries in the region. Only because of the backing of the US and the stranglehold of its government by hateful ultra right wing nationalist parties, has it been able to bomb its neighbours in the Middle East with impunity.

Shame on the US and shame on Israel. And shame on the warmongers who cheer them on.

DeftGoldHedgehog · 13/04/2026 05:24

JaneFondue · 12/04/2026 23:47

They always were the baddies.

This!

BrinkWomanship · 13/04/2026 09:09

“Many reputable organisations” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Which organisations? Because if you’re citing the UN, it’s worth knowing that the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, 57 member states coordinating votes together, is one of the most powerful blocs in the General Assembly. That’s why Israel is the most sanctioned country in UN history while actual genocides elsewhere barely get a mention. The ICJ, Amnesty and HRW have the same problem: who staffs them, who funds them and what do they already believe before they start? These aren’t neutral bodies handing down impartial verdicts.

And the numbers matter. There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world and 15 million Jews. Even a small proportion holding hostile views toward Israel, layered on top of antisemitism that has been embedded in cultures and political traditions for centuries, produces an enormous amount of built-in hostility that shapes institutions and media coverage before anyone has looked at the facts.

On the genocide charge specifically… the civilian to combatant death ratio in Gaza is estimated at around 1.5 to 1. In most urban warfare historically it’s closer to 9 to 1. Israel dropped leaflets, made phone calls, sent text messages and created evacuation corridors. Hamas blocked civilians from leaving, stored weapons in hospitals and schools and used its own population as a shield because dead civilians were more useful to it than live ones.

If Israel wanted to destroy the Gazan people it did a remarkably poor job of it given the firepower at its disposal. Genocide requires intent to destroy a people. The evidence points the other way.

Calling this genocide while ignoring what started it, who is deliberately prolonging it and who actually treats Gazan lives as expendable isn’t moral clarity. I don’t have to like specific politicians (Trump is an odious man) but, again, I know who the baddies are in this conflict and it’s not Israel and America.

JulietteHasAGun · 13/04/2026 09:12

Everything is temporary and fluid. I imagine in 100 years if not earlier China will be the world leader

BrinkWomanship · 13/04/2026 10:13

I forgot to respond to the point about Lebanon.

Hezbollah has been firing rockets into northern Israel since October 2023. Tens of thousands of Israelis had to abandon their homes for over a year because of it. The Lebanese government has zero control over Hezbollah, which is basically Iran’s armed proxy operating out of Lebanese villages by design, so that when Israel hits back it looks like they’re attacking Lebanon. That’s not Israel being the aggressor. That’s Iran using Lebanese civilians as cover and Israeli civilians as target practice.

CurdinHenry · 13/04/2026 10:21

I am worried that Trump is Robert Mugabe but with the ability to fuck the entire world instead of just his own country.

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EmeraldShamrock000 · 13/04/2026 10:27

There was always an air of badness, to be the boss you need to be tough.

This is a whole different level of bad, there is a deranged narc in charge, whose loyalty lies outside of the USA.

Trump has insulted, mocked, threatened tariffs, against countries who were loyal to the US since he started his term. He is a horrible human.

He is continuing to do untold damage to the world and he’s ranting like a lunatic. Someone contain the crazy man.

CurdinHenry · 13/04/2026 10:34

I did briefly wonder if he's being extra mental on purpose so Vance can step in, save the day and then be welcomed as new Prez. But no that was daft of me.

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StandFirm · 13/04/2026 10:37

ultracynic · 13/04/2026 00:16

China is already quietly getting on with running the world

Well they certainly have a bright future in the Middle East...

20thCenturyFecks · 13/04/2026 10:46

BrinkWomanship · 13/04/2026 00:29

Iran has not only stated it wants to destroy Israel, the US and the West, it has taken active steps to do so. It’s funded militias and terrorists in the Middle East and the west, provides oil and arms China and Russia, subjugates and massacres its own people, and was working towards having a nuclear bomb that it intended to use on Israel first. it announced this repeatedly. It had a clock in Tehran with a countdown until it destroyed Israel. These guys were not lying!

I know who the baddies are and it’s not Israel and the US.

Israel has shown us that it will work hard to survive (Iran is a literal existential threat to Israel) and the US also will do the same. We benefit from their actions.

Thank goodness they have the moral clarity to know right from wrong and the means and courage to enforce it.

Edited

If the US, egged on by Israel, had left well alone it would have maintained a basic status quo. While less than perfect it was one of sorts.

I've had empathy for the Israeli situation up until now but they've taken advantage of a crazy American administration and dragged a fair percentage of the world into their shit storm.

Neither country is coming out of this well.

StandFirm · 13/04/2026 10:50

CurdinHenry · 13/04/2026 10:34

I did briefly wonder if he's being extra mental on purpose so Vance can step in, save the day and then be welcomed as new Prez. But no that was daft of me.

Vance will certainly not be an improvement.

Goldenbear · 13/04/2026 10:50

Ilovelifeverymuch · 13/04/2026 04:31

Hahaha and yet we're starting to see results and even many EU leaders have admitted that he is right the EU needs to step up and pay it's share

And the serial bankrupt is way more successful that you will ever be and he became the president of the US despite everything the Democrats threw at him after Biden came into office.

I would take the economic changes in the USA anytime any day over the economic situation in the UK where the priority is which benefits should we cut or increase. Wages have stagnated for so long and there's barely any difference between minimum wage and professional wages anymore. Ambition is now driven by how much extra benefits can I get to prop up my low wage job.

I'm seeing many Brits moving to the USA to create jobs and open businesses etc while the UK fights over 2 child benefit cap or not. Enjoy your decline.

Blanket tariffs led to wall street crash yet wall street hasn't crashed and many many companies have started spending to bring manufacturing into the US but according to you it's just unicorns 😂 I will take the unicorns while you get your benefit cap lifted and borrow to pay benefits. What a joke.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/us-manufacturing-domestic-tariffs/

And it's not only tariffs that are figuring companies, now they also realize the risk of depending on China. I would rather a US that fights than a UK that just lays there and plays possum to China. You've literally given up as are just managing your decline now.

Edited

Many Brits moving to the U.S. Where's the data on that, evidence showing this trajectory? This is complete fiction.

CurdinHenry · 13/04/2026 10:53

StandFirm · 13/04/2026 10:50

Vance will certainly not be an improvement.

Well he does think aliens are real but also that they're actually biblical demons so

No

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Ponoka7 · 13/04/2026 11:03

I'm still of the frame of mind how much we should do to defend cultures that have child marriage, to full adult men. We are horrified by the reproductive rights in the USA, but they are still decades ahead of the rights of girls (not even women) re child marriage/rape/birth/dying in childbirth/female circumcision in many societies. We ignore the killing if childrenor rather girls becauseof forced birth from the age they start their periods. It seems that there's a picking out of what is going right and wrong in certain countries/religions/cultures and ignoring what suits, to declare who the baddies are.

Bunnyofhope · 13/04/2026 11:07

There are no goodies in politics. Probably no baddies either. It's all about power. Some powerful nations allow their citizens a part of the power. Some don't. Not very powerful nations, the UK, the EU, need to align themselves to a powerful nation - the USA in our cases. It's not optional it's absolutely necessary.
Unless we want to swap to China (we don't) we are stuck with the US. And no the EU plus UK cannot stand alone. We resent every penny spent on defence.

JaneFondue · 13/04/2026 11:08

Ponoka7 · 13/04/2026 11:03

I'm still of the frame of mind how much we should do to defend cultures that have child marriage, to full adult men. We are horrified by the reproductive rights in the USA, but they are still decades ahead of the rights of girls (not even women) re child marriage/rape/birth/dying in childbirth/female circumcision in many societies. We ignore the killing if childrenor rather girls becauseof forced birth from the age they start their periods. It seems that there's a picking out of what is going right and wrong in certain countries/religions/cultures and ignoring what suits, to declare who the baddies are.

I am not sure how Iranian girls can escape child marriage if they are dead by US bombing. Afghan girls didn't manage it.
Liberating women from the skies has never worked.

Ponoka7 · 13/04/2026 11:09

CurdinHenry · 13/04/2026 10:53

Well he does think aliens are real but also that they're actually biblical demons so

No

Has anyone asked the Pope his opinion? Or their local Iman. These religious people will sound crazy to non believers (of which I am one), but when you look at it from their pov, it makes sense. Some of the greatest amd most intelligent minds believe in life outside of Earth.

Ponoka7 · 13/04/2026 11:13

JaneFondue · 13/04/2026 11:08

I am not sure how Iranian girls can escape child marriage if they are dead by US bombing. Afghan girls didn't manage it.
Liberating women from the skies has never worked.

Edited

But we don't hear the outright condemnation about the subject on here, that we hear of the men in the Epstein files. You've got to ask yourself why it's ok for a whole society supports pedophilia and why we declare some societies and people baddies. The holiday threads are interesting because posters won't go to North Africa because of the men, but it isn't a country wide issue, unlike what's declared about the US. I love NA, btw.

Overtheatlantic · 13/04/2026 11:19

40 years ago the U.S. was selling arms to Iran and the Cold War was still happening. This is my lifetime experience. And 40 years before that we had WWII which ultimately drew boundaries and brought about Israel which didn’t even exist and the Arab nations didn’t agree to. Anyway, whatever is happening today will look very different in a short time and the children will see it as history.

Screamingabdabz · 13/04/2026 11:20

JaneFondue · 12/04/2026 23:47

They always were the baddies.

Are you actually for real? You prefer regimes that poison dissenters with polonium, or maybe the lovely Taliban where women are treated less than animals or China where human slavery is the economic model? Or maybe North Korea? You like mandatory haircuts and starvation?

JaneFondue · 13/04/2026 11:24

Screamingabdabz · 13/04/2026 11:20

Are you actually for real? You prefer regimes that poison dissenters with polonium, or maybe the lovely Taliban where women are treated less than animals or China where human slavery is the economic model? Or maybe North Korea? You like mandatory haircuts and starvation?

No. The world isn't as black and white as you think, or separated into goodies and baddies, because it isn't a video game.
Iranians can want to be liberated from the regime, and yet not want to be killed by US bombing.

whirlyhead · 13/04/2026 11:27

I live in Spain I admit, but I've seen no evidence of any Brits moving to the USA to start jobs and create businesses - quite the contrary. There's been a 43% decline in Brits relocating to the USA in the last year. I think it's only really tech based companies that look to America.

I do think Europe needs to step up their game with regards to defence etc and stop relying on America for it. The USA is no longer a reliable ally and I would rather we reduced ties with it.

TooBigForMyBoots · 13/04/2026 11:29

Ponoka7 · 13/04/2026 11:09

Has anyone asked the Pope his opinion? Or their local Iman. These religious people will sound crazy to non believers (of which I am one), but when you look at it from their pov, it makes sense. Some of the greatest amd most intelligent minds believe in life outside of Earth.

Trump isn't happy with the pope. He prefers the pope's brother. But Trump doesn't need the pope. He's entered the stage of dementia where he believes he is god.🤦‍♀️

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-pope-leo-truth-social-b2956378.html

Trump slams Pope Leo as ‘weak’ and posts picture of himself as Jesus healing the sick

President claims ‘if I wasn’t in the White House, Leo wouldn’t be in the Vatican’ in Truth social tirade

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-pope-leo-truth-social-b2956378.html

Goldenbear · 13/04/2026 11:32

JaneFondue · 13/04/2026 11:24

No. The world isn't as black and white as you think, or separated into goodies and baddies, because it isn't a video game.
Iranians can want to be liberated from the regime, and yet not want to be killed by US bombing.

I agree, you can't just bypass the moral cues, there needs to be some national comprehension of policy, ethics and governance.

JaneFondue · 13/04/2026 11:39

The US has done a great job of persuading the world- through popular culture- that US military intervention will miraculously liberate women, solve poverty, get rid of dictators, introduce better haircuts and bring peaceful democracy to everyone.

Their actual record is rather different.

I find posters shouting " Do you want women to be treated like animals? Huh. Do you? ludicrous, given women continue to be treated like animals in many of the places the US has liberated and in other places Trump is pally with, like Saudi Arabia.

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