AIBU to think mental health crises should not be treated as antisocial behaviour

[Serencwtch]

TW: Some references to suicide.

In my local area Police have started a new initiative to reduce the demands & costs involved in attending to 'concern for welfare'/mental health crisis type calls.

They have issued a number of formal enforcement notices and warnings using Antisocial Behaviour legislation to people who have caused inconvenience through mental health crisis/suicide attempts in public places. These enforcements are community protection warning (CPW), Community Protection Notice (CPN) & Criminal Behaviour Orders (CBO).

I know one individual very well who has received one of these & they were very distressed by it & have now become very withdrawn & secretive. It's also difficult as a loved one as if I was concerned this person may be at risk I would be hesitant to involve emergency services as even a call to ambulance would likely result in police attendance & therefore have criminal implications for them. I also can see that it has increased their risk but in a more secretive & less public way. No doubt police consider this a success as they have not been called out to them.

I fully understand the pressures on police, I have friends & family that have served as officers & police staff. The funding cuts are every bit as bad as NHS or social care but with less public awareness.

This doesn't sit right with me at all. I think it's misuse of legislation designed to tackle antisocial behaviour & that a mental health crisis/someone attempting to take their life should not be labelled as antisocial behaviour.

Yes I think you're right.

This is a new policy in my area (doubt it's the only one)

It is a very different approach to when I was going through similar.

I knew about SIM several years ago & was relieved when it was abolished but suspected that something similar would take its place.

I was very shocked when I heard about it? I was trying to use the example I know about without giving too much confidential info away or discussing suicide in an irresponsible way.

I don't think that would be a section 136. If they are being admitted onto a mental health ward, the likelihood would be section 2 or 3.
136 is specifically for situations where people need to be in a 'place of safety' (which can be a range of locations) for up to 24 (36?) hours to facilitate assessment.

Then yes it is justified.
Think of how it would impact the person who found them, and anyone else who came upon the scene.
The moment they decided to attempt suicide in a public place it became anti social.

People admitted onto a ward are likely being admitted under a section 2 for up to 28 days, or a section 3 for up to 6 months and it is reasonably likely that could be psychotic.

A Section 136 is for 24 hours and it is a police Power that they can bring somebody to a place of safety if they suspect a mental illness. In a significant proportion of cases these people may be drunk, intoxicated with drugs or very stressed after an argument with a boyfriend etc. It definitely does not mean that they are automatically psychotic or mentally unwell and need admission. Further assessment is needed.

Re the OP, this reflects the dire state of MH services, the lack of support for people in society, inadequate housing, poverty and so much more. It thus falls on the police’s shoulders and this must be an act of desperation on their part. Sad all round.

There was a change recently so police are not having to deal with issues that really should be dealt with MH teams

unfortunately there just isn’t enough staff or they are often poorly managed so it falls back onto the police when it isn’t actually a police matter but then it can often become a police matter as the persons reaction towards the police

so I would be more inclined to loon to not where the police have gone wrong but where other teams have not supported your friend

I clarified on the previous page I didn’t mean to imply they had arrived in the ward on a section 136. They had been section 2/3 in a&e following admission under 136. It was in response to the poster who said it was rare for a sectioned person to be in psychosis.

I think it's a handful of people who do a lot of posting rather than a majority

I couldn't agree more with you OP. Whilst I sympathise that the police often pick up casework where there is no mental health support available, criminalising people will simply lead to less engagement and support.

I agree.

The police should be solving crime not running around after the same people

If they were brought in accompanied by police & were psychotic then it's more likely they were detained under s135 which is quite different & will be planned by the mental health team/AMHP.

S136 is for when police find someone in a public place.

I wonder if there were fewer incidents like these when the mental hospitals were open. Not that they were great places of course, but you'd usually be detained until you were a bit better, assessed and started on some treatment. I don't remember the police's time being so taken up with people's mental health problems in past decades.

I meant the police have to accompany their section 136 to a place of safety and frequently stay with them for the 24 hours until section expires.

unless the place of safety is a police station of course

Police was accompany a s135 too. They're more likely to be on a 135 to han a 136 if they are psychotic.

In either case a police station should no longer be used as a place of safety. (Not denying that it still happens) If no suitable mental health suite then A&E would be used.

Do you mean psychiatric wards? These do still exist, but the priority is for people who are acutely unwell so beds are limited. Do you mean the old style asylums where people stayed for longer periods as they struggled to manage in the community?
We have different legislation these days that means the least restrictive option always has to be considered first so detention isn’t always the go to

I waa about to say the same. Train driver family friend. Very unlucky because jumpers were quite rare where we lived.

Op, Is part of the asbo ban from the area?

Gosh they never stay in ours. They hand over to the S136 suite staff and go back on their way. Unless the person was extremely aggressive I suppose.

They do in a&e

anyway im clearly not explaining what I mean very well so ill give up 😂

The lack of meaningful mental health and addiction support sits at the heart of this. Extremely unwell people having to wait far longer than is safe for an assessment. Or left so that they become too ill to engage.

Of course the police shouldn’t always be the backstop, but criminalising people in this way is not a good way to manage this.

Except that I did NOT say that

I said it’s rare for people on S136 police holding power to be psychotic and I stand by that. They are more commonly drunk or high in my extensive experience of conducting such assessments.

On the other hand it is self evidently very common for people on S2 or S3 to be psychotic and is probably the commonest reason to be placed on one of those sections. Most assessments that result in those detentions are planned ones and not emergency ones and indeed it is a mark of a poor service if there is a high S136 conversion rate as clearly those people should have been recognised and responded to in a planned way sooner.

A&E can't cope - I was there a couple years ago and there was a very distressed young woman there waiting for a mh assessment, iirc she'd already been there for 48 hours, wouldn't stay in a cubicle so was wandering around shouting, occasionally trying to leave. The staff were being incredibly patient with her, guiding her back to her cubicle, talking her into staying when she tried to leave, but it really wasn't the best place for her wellbeing, dignity or privacy, nobody seemed to have any idea how long she'd have to wait and it was taking up a lot of staff time.

Helplines are hit and miss in all honesty, many have limited opening hours and they can't diagnose or offer treatment.

I mean the larger hospitals. My mother used to be admitted to one of these after her overdoses (antisocial personality disorder). They'd keep her there until she got so fed up she wanted out, then her behaviour would improve and she'd be allowed home.

Ok they are not perfect but they are better than hanging around on a bridge waiting for police to show up surely?
Even calling a 999 ambulance is better than that although still not ideal.
Whats your better suggestion if you don’t like mine?

The problem there is that lack of resources means the thresholds have changed. People generally have to be more severely ill now, a massive problem as obviously early intervention would be far better - and probably cheaper in the long term, but services are stuck in fire-fighting mode.

Me? Better resources for mh services - more money, more staff, actual person centred care rather than lip service to the concept (see also involvement, participation, recovery ethos and whatever the latest fashionable terminology is).

Exactly this. It used to be the case that someone would be detained or admitted voluntarily due to suicide risk but this has changed a lot.

Voluntary admissions are virtually unheard of & detention even after a serious suicide attempt is rare if the person has 'capacity'