Parental estrangement. What do you secretly think?

[Orphlids]

I’m interested in outsiders’ views on estrangements between parents and their adult children. If you’ve met, or were to meet someone, and then discovered they were estranged from both their adult children, what would your initial thoughts be, assuming you knew nothing more about how the estrangement came to happen?

UABU - you wouldn’t think negatively about the parent. You’d be prepared accept the adult children were perhaps unpleasant, or difficult people. You’d feel sorry for the parent.

UANBU - you’d suspect the parent’s poor behaviour was more likely to have caused the estrangements, and you might view that person with suspicion.

Which is closer to your view? I’d be interested in any thoughts, if you’d like to comment in further detail.

i think standards are very much still the same. any case of where the child goes nc i have heard about is similar to myself where the parent has a drinking or drug problem or both and no respect for boundaries thinking they can still speak to their child as if they are a child

I agree with this - of the child is the instigator then there is likely a very serious intractable problem with the parent (addiction, personality disorder, MH, unsupported ND, abuse, neglect, enabling) - I think it takes a lot for a child to disconnect from a parent. I wonder how much it happens the other way round - is it 50/50?

I also think one of the big reasons it seems more common these days is because people are more open about it.

DH’s Grandad was a violent man. His Granny couldn’t leave him. His children wouldn’t have dared speak out against him as it was very much not the done thing (and DV wasn’t seen as a problem anyway). So other than the couple of children who moved abroad everyone stayed in basic contact with him for Granny’s sake.

When my father was violent my school cared. My Brownie leader offered my mother help. Very very few people thought it should be something that was hidden or was somehow something I should be ashamed of.

That shift is huge. Even though there are still people who judge anyone NC with family members it’s nothing like it was years before.

it’s always painful to get to the point where reducing contact with the parent is the only option. it’s especially painful if the rest of the family though understanding the hurt choose to prioritise the feelings of one side over the other and expect you to just put up with it because it’s you mother/father. even now i would be open to relationship again provided accountability was taken, changes were made to deal with the substance abuse and there was a sincere apology for the pain caused. i am still waiting but no longer think my mother is capable of it which is the point my family believe i should just accept her and have a relationship again as i am asking for the impossible. but i also have a 2 year old now and his stability and safety are my priority if that means no relationship with my mother so be it

One observation-

in sometimes think it’s easier to disconnect from the “decent” parent than it is the problematic one.

for example your parents have split up. One remains neutral, never says anything bad about the other parent or the relationship, is there for the child no matter what. The other is emotional, demands loyalty, that they pick them, and emotionally manipulates-you love me more, don’t spend time with the other parent, etc etc.

it’s easier to go nc with the neutral parent as you know there’ll be no drama, and they’ll be there should you ever need. Whereas continuing the relationship means constant drama from the other parent, so it’s easier to keep them happy by cutting or reducing contact.

I think it's complicated. Bad behaviour doesn't automatically mean someone is a bad person and you have different dynamics as a friend.

If you are parenting with unreasolved trauma that is likely to impact on the relationship you might have with your kids.
Drink and drug issues, infidelity, boundary issues, being generally uncomfortable with parent/child dynamics. It can make relationships very difficult and everyone has the right to protect their peace. Putting up with behaviour and impacting on mental health isn't as accepted as it used to be.

It's sad, but I wouldn't always assume it was for any deplorable reason or huge fall out, though obviously for some people it might be.

i agree there. i know with both narcissists in my family their actions come from a place of insecurity and hurt. i do understand that but i also feel as an individual while compassion is possible people are allowed to cut contact if it hurts them and their family. i think that is what makes it so painful especially if it is a child parent relationship

I’d reserve judgement until I had a bit more of a grasp on the situation. I was nc with my father from the age of about 12 until his death in 2017. He was not a nice man. I understand he would blame my mum for turning me against him, and because he was very convincing, I’m sure people believed him. It bore no resemblance to the truth though.

Having said that, I’m also aware of a woman whose daughter has cut contact with her. I don’t want to go into details because it’s a very specific set of circumstances but the mum is without blame.

I have 3 adult children in their 30s and 1 has decided to be NC with me. The other two have decided to go NC with her - as have a big chunk of the extended family.

What do people think? That she's a weirdo who's read too much online and has been negatively influenced. She's into a lot of the wellness and Andrew Tate stuff. Apparently, I was an abusive mother because I didn't give her a freshly laundered school skirt and school jumper every day. Obviously, it's just a massive coincidence that she went NC with me when she owed me £1000s.

In other words, I don't generally just accept NC as a reasonable response and it's up to that person. I wouldn't pry, but I also wouldn't just assume that they were in the right.

And I think what you are doing is breaking the intergenerational trauma. In a healthy situation you would have a parent supportive of your motherhood who would also play an important role as a grandparent. You have been robbed already of a childhood where your emotional development was optimised and prioritised - now you are faced with short changing your own child if you stay enmeshed with someone you drains your finite emotional energy and time and wrecks your peace - which means you can’t be your best for your child. I have spent some time at Al Anon and they always encourage ‘detach with love’ - that doesnt necessarily mean NC - it can mean just in your head - they never support everyone going down with the ship. We have to protect the next generation and we are often starting off hindered ourselves from our deficient childhood and lack of family support as new parents - so we can’t then open ourselves up to abuse, derailment etc as it’s our own children who will then lose if we are not centred and rested and focused on them.

I wouldn't assume either way.
Without knowing the reasons (which could be multiple and complex) it's impossible to form an opinion surely?

I know two people well who are/were estranged from their mothers as older adults. They are both good, but immensely difficult “my way or the highway” type people. In both cases the relationship with the mother has always been difficult, since early childhood and the mother was no doubt flawed. I genuinely think it’s six of one and half a dozen of the other in both cases - these were difficult children with mothers who struggled to cope and to treat them the same as their more easy-going siblings when they acted up and their siblings didn’t. The similarities are striking.
If I were dating/looking for a romantic partner I’d avoid people whose family relationships are this difficult. They are not easy people to get along with and they like control.

Have you ever met a parent who cut off their own DC? Kicking DC out and then going NC with the child, leaving the child sobbing and in tears.

The thing is, some people aren’t worthy of respect. Being family doesn’t change that. I’m a firm believer of respect is earned , not inherited.

On the topic of one child being estranged being more likely to be the child's problem, I'd say that although it could be more likely, it's not always the case. My partner has 3 siblings. They are the only one of the 4 to go low to no contact with the parent and let me tell you, there is a very long list of reasons. The siblings aren't close to my partner either so I couldn't say why they don't have as much of a problem with the parent's behaviours (although at a fairly recent wedding one of them made some fairly scathing comments about the parent in a speech and I'm unsure whether the parent picked up on it or not... So I'm inclined to think that, although aware of it, the others just have a higher threshold for putting up the fuckery and keeping the parent around). Perhaps the others weren't subjected to the abuse my partner was (being the eldest) or perhaps they just don't hold the parent as accountable? I find it interesting reading a comment about the fact that it's none of anyone's business and shouldn't affect the relationship that you have with a person if their children have gone nc. Personally, if I knew they had gone nc because of abuse, I wouldn't want to associate with the parent even if they were as nice as pie to me. I assume this is why predators often get a free pass, because people are often happy to turn a blind eye so long as its not affected them directly. Sad.

Having been estranged from both of my parents (one for 25 years, one for 5 years), I can say that I know in my case, that one of my parents deserved it, whereas with the other, I was at least equally to blame.

Prior to my parents deaths, I was more on the 'Meh, they must have been really bad.' side, but now, with regretful hindsight, I know it isn't always that simple.

Some people are shit parents but sometimes the issue is a lot more complex. And no one on the outside can know this. Even the individuals concerned don't really understand the complex interplay of issues involved.

Key bits of this I think are true.

There is an element of truth to this with me. “my way or the highway” type people.

Also, I think this is true of many people, both the child and the parent. None of us are without flaws. the relationship with the mother has always been difficult, since early childhood and the mother was no doubt flawed. I genuinely think it’s six of one and half a dozen of the other in both cases - these were difficult children with mothers who struggled to cope and to treat them the same as their more easy-going siblings when they acted up and their siblings didn’t.

And I KNOW this is also true of me. dating/looking for a romantic partner I’d avoid people whose family relationships are this difficult. They are not easy people to get along with I am not an easy person to be with.

Being older I have the benefit of hindsight. I can see that although my parents were both flawed, one was more a victim of their own early life experiences, whereas the other really was just selfish. I wish I'd done things differently but it's too late now.

I knew someone who’s two dd cur her off. I was friends with one dd growing up so spent a lot of time in their house. She lived for those girls, worked multiple low income jobs for them, never let a new partner move in, they always had the last eat stuff they wanted. Believed they could do no wrong and argued with school if they said dd had done something, I remember my friend getting out of a detention she deserves because her mum believed her lies about it.

she took out a second mortgage on her home to lend the other dd who never paid it back. Then to make it fair took out a loan for her younger dd when asked because she wanted thousands of pounds too.

she turned those girls into spoiled nasty people who then cut her off when she was no longer of use to them. Whose fault is it? Its definitely the children are horrible people but they were products of the way she raised them

I am no contact with my father, it’s been maybe two years, or more now, it happened late, I’m 55 now.

If you spoke to my father, he’d say, I didn’t go and visit him often enough. Actually, knowing my dad well, mine and my sisters name can’t be mentioned in the house. Same as his own mothers and siblings. He is non contact with most of his family. He actually went no contact with me, but, I told him for once what I thought and I knew that would be the end.

If you were to ask me, I’d say he was a physically abusive parent, we weren’t injured, but, there was a cane by his chair, or he used hands to beat, whatever. He had affairs until my mum left so he settled with the woman he was having an affair with at the time, who got pregnant, and is a real piece of work, jealous to the nth degree. Threatened me with a knife etc. There’s loads more, mainly different political views, jealousy, he hated I did well, thought I shouldn’t have help from the state to work as a hard of hearing person, constantly trying to rile me up by saying racist things he knew as a Social Worker were against my values and principles. That is why I hardly visited. In the 15 years I’ve lived in my house he has been inside it twice. When my son died ten years ago, he didn’t even know where I lived! Oh, and the weekend before my son died my dad said he was no longer welcome in his house, alongside my daughter, because they didn’t visit him. He has a belief he has to do nothing, no visits, or calls, nothing!

Anyway, so you can see it depends on perspective he definitely feels aggrieved, that I am the wrongdoer! Unless you heard both sides it would be difficult for you to know what really happened!

Where was their DF in all of this?

I wouldn't think anything. Parents and adult children are just people - some get on well; some don't. There is far too much pressure to have a "perfect "relationship, and most of us don't so it's not about blame or fault on either side.

Agree.

I also think that plenty of family members out there are LC without the other realising because there is no dramatic outburst or argument, just an instance of being fed up and quietly distancing; also there are the types who will judge those distancing and want to make excuses for the other party and say “they’re your xyz” knowing if it was anyone that wasn’t family that treated them badly, been disrespectful for years, snide/shi**y comments, they would have told them where to go and drop them much sooner.

Blood imo doesn’t make you family, it makes you related.

I was on a 10hr flight with my 15 month old once, and was sat next to the most lovely woman, she helped me no end, we chatted the whole flight. Towards the end she mentioned that her 3 children don't speak to her. I couldn't believe it - she seemed so nice. But it did make me wonder what she did, why would ALL 3 got no contact. I definitely assumed it was her and not them, even though she seemed so lovely.

This is so sad to read, it sounds as if she tried her best and the daughters somehow aren’t big-hearted enough to understand this. Or perhaps things were said or happened behind closed doors that others are not party to.

Isn’t it obvious? As @Burntt says, the mother presumably meant terribly well, but the way she brought up her children turned them into spoilt, self-centred monsters. Sometimes good intentions have negative consequences.