AIBU to think face coverings in public should be banned?

[OpheliaWasntMad]

Should all types of face covering in public be banned? I think they should. Mainly I’m concerned that people in balaclavas and face coverings are shoplifting and stealing phones etc with impunity.
People with balaclavas on marches look threatening and sinister.
Women with niqabs create a barrier between themselves and others as it’s hard to form connections if you can’t see someone’s facial expressions.
I think all face covering should be banned. It contributes to a society that feels more unsafe and divided.

Well said. It’s heartbreaking that even a conversation about addressing anti social and criminal behaviour attracts ridiculous accusations of ‘racism’ and being ‘ableist’.

These constant and spurious accusations are immature and show limited thinking but are aimed at just shutting down any conversation. They can’t address the arguments so aim to silence us.

We need to focus on our priorities and preserving our values and peaceful society or be changed forever.

Yes - the only way to preserve our liberalism and tolerance is by drawing a line . We can’t tolerate abuse of women / female genital mutilation / full face covering.
I despise the white middle class liberals who defend the right of misogynists to insist their wives cover their faces .
Most Women in Iran and Afghanistan would not understand why western women wanted to support men’s right to cover their faces .
Im religious ( I pray most days and go to weekly services) and I support the right of all religious people to practice their religion as long as it doesn’t present a threat to society

I should add - I’m not Muslim - I’m Christian. But whatever religion… we should all accept we have to adapt to the world we’re in .

Yes. And it has got to the point where even Middle Eastern countries are warning us about the intentions of some Muslims (emphatically NOT ALL Muslims for the avoidance of doubt among some) who are coming here precisely to exploit our huge tolerance and to allow them to gain political power and increase levels of radicalisation.

The middle class liberals advocating for men to be allowed to continue using face coverings as a tool of oppression of women is mind blowing but sadly not surprising. I’m obviously not saying that all Muslim women with a face coverings are forced to wear them but some clearly are or have been brainwashed into voluntarily doing something that makes life harder for themselves. As a case in point, the so called ‘honour killings’ show the punishment meted out for women who don’t comply.

All this medical mask business - ridiculous! If I see someone in such a mask I can still see their face more or less, and I just assume they’re either clinically vulnerable or dreaming of 2020. Or Asian people who -I must congratulate - wear one when they are ill as a courtesy.

TOTALLY different from youths wearing balaclavas or anarchist protestors. They are trying to disguise themselves.

And again, TOTALLY different from women wearing a full covering. I not only see them as a religious fundamentalist with a culture which as a woman I reject, but I worry that the creep of such attire will impact our daughters/granddaughters.

Yes, we always get the kneejerk reactions.

People saying banning face coverings is racist and ablist would be spending their time better to actually read about how it has been implemented in other European countries and even in Muslim countries like Tunisia.

I agree. All the people saying masks have always been worn by robbers; yes, but it was a rare sight. Now in London we have groups of teens, all dressed identically and with faces covered, looking for trouble and vulnerable people, obviously to avoid identification. It’s a common sight.

And yes, if niqab isn’t worn due to coercion, it is a sign of religious fundamentalism aka extremism, which is not good news for the cohesion and safety of this country and should be discouraged.

My next door site is full of reports of phone thefts, attacks, robberies, burglaries carried out in broad daylight by young men wearing balaclavas or masks. It is very intimidating. I see these individuals and groups riding around on bikes/scooters, hanging around parks. It is very intimidating. There are no police around anyway. I don't know what the answer is.

I have a facial difference which people often stare at. When it's really cold I often pull my scarf over my face, and find it quite a relief no longer being stared at because the difference is no longer visible. This makes me wonder what it would be like to wear some sort of covering all the time, and to never have people state at my face and make me feel really self conscious about it. Would you ban me from wearing a face covering if I decided I wanted to?

I’m sorry that you are going through that but unfortunately rules can only ever be based on the most common societal situations, with most laws there will always be individuals who are disadvantaged. Should we not make theft a crime because some people feel they need to steal to eat? Or should we keep theft as a crime and look at other alternatives for people can’t afford food?

OK, so what's your alternative solution for me?

I'd vote for a ban on total face coverings except on medical or safety grounds. They hamper communication, create division and allow abuse to go unnoticed. They prevent integration into society and can be intimidating.

So niqabs, balaclavas and ski masks would not be OK. Motorcycle helmets would have to be removed if not on a bike.

Medical masks OK where authorised by a doctor - immunosuppressed etc.
Head scarves, kippahs or religious symbol - cross, star of David etc are fine.

Personally I'd ban all religious clothing/symbols in schools. Up to 16, children are just that, and shouldn't be encumbered by religion.

While I have every sympathy for your medical condition, there is saying ‘hard cases make bad law’, meaning that fringe or unusual cases are not a good basis for making law and can cause unintended consequences.

Why don’t you look at how medical exemptions for face covering and other similar laws are handled in other countries and maybe you could suggest something that works for you? The blue badge scheme is one example of something reasonably workable.

As pp points out, we shouldn’t be held back from making a law to achieve a specific aim for the good of the majority, in this case to prevent antisocial, criminal or terrorist behaviour and private social cohesion, because it is not wanted by a small minority, however much sympathy we might have towards the situation for that minority.

Agree.

Especually in schools. Even things like branded trainers are banned for being divisive and contributing to bullying, yet overt religious symbols being allowed do exactly the same thing.

There are even reports of kids in Germany being bullied into converting to Islam by other kids in the schools. There are some strands of Islam that promote coercion (the well known concept of ‘jizya’ - a tax imposed on non Muslims to humiliate and impoverish being one example). If people with these views gain power in certain areas, this is what can happen.

You could do some reading on how the ban on face coverings has been implemented in other countries. Denmark is generally considered to be a progressive country yet they have brought in a ban on face coverings for reasons of cohesion and security.

It would be interesting to find out how they dealt with these sorts of issues.