AIBU to think face coverings in public should be banned?

[OpheliaWasntMad]

Should all types of face covering in public be banned? I think they should. Mainly I’m concerned that people in balaclavas and face coverings are shoplifting and stealing phones etc with impunity.
People with balaclavas on marches look threatening and sinister.
Women with niqabs create a barrier between themselves and others as it’s hard to form connections if you can’t see someone’s facial expressions.
I think all face covering should be banned. It contributes to a society that feels more unsafe and divided.

So how does the young non English speaking bride make enough trusted connections (while being physically isolated behind a veil) to help her report this illegal coercive control?

Just because something is illegal doesn’t mean we should allow further barriers to reporting. It amazes me that you presumably think that you’re being kind while arguing in favour of something used widely as a tool of oppression for women.

That just sounds like conspiracy theory rubbish.

I have never once been asked for ID to enter a supermarket in London. In the past two months I've been in Aldi, Lidl, Tesco, Sainsbury's, Asda, M&S food, plus the express/local versions.

You can swipe your nectar card at the Sainsbury's entrance if you want to use the self scanning gadget. It is not compulsory for entry. I think at my nearest Asda you can do the same if you put your phone number into the device, but it's been a long time since I bothered.

Obviously loyalty scheme use means data is collected. One can opt into that for the discounts, or opt out if concerned about privacy. No one is banned from the supermarket for not wanting to use a loyalty card. (For now. Who knows what will be the rules in future!)

None of this is relevant to a discussion about whether banning religious dress or medical devices is a reasonable response to antisocial behaviour by gangs of youths in balaclavas.

None of this is relevant to a discussion about whether banning religious dress or medical devices is a reasonable response to antisocial behaviour by gangs of youths in balaclavas.

Allowing people to hide their faces in public as it stops them being easily identified is quite a big feature of this discussion, I’m not sure why you are now claiming it is irrelevant?

I don’t think anyone has suggested banning ‘medical devices’ though.

Yes. Religious reasons are the least of my concerns when it comes to face masks, it’s the gangs and crowds who like to intimidate society, who steal, it’s like the scum uniform, wearing full black with a face mask.

Seeing religious full body, face coverings makes me deeply uncomfortable, I don’t think any woman should have to wear a full body covering barely showing their eyes. It’s very repressive.

Using loyalty cards or not in the supermarket is not relevant to a discussion about banning face coverings to address the issue of antisocial behaviour and it's silly to suggest otherwise. Opting in to use your loyalty card to scan your own shop doesn't constitute needing to show ID to access a supermarket.

In the context of immunosuppression/immunocompromise a medical grade mask, or "face covering" if you insist, is indeed a medical device. Which you are suggesting should be banned because it hides the wearer's face.

No one has come up with a credible explanation for how "medical exceptions" might work in practice.

In practice, an indiscriminate "face coverings" ban will ban disabled people who need these medical devices.

There are existing laws to prosecute criminal gangs. That the police don’t bother investigating these crimes seems a much bigger issue to me than whether ordinary citizens and women especially (!) should be policed on their freedom of choice of headwear.

Unless of course this is a racist post thinly disguised as faux concern? 🤔

But every time I walk into Tesco o prove I’m not the man who beat up the security guard last week and got banned, when I go into a soft play I prove imnot the paedophile who the staff has been warned about.

Everytime someone wears a veil they are signalling that it is ok to put more onerous conditions on women, that its is women’s responsibiliy to control men’s actions.

So you’ve abandoned your women need to be ‘free’ to wear a symbol of oppression of women and are focussing in on the topic of people needing to wear masks for medical purposes which no one has suggested should be banned.

As I said before it is not my or pps responsibility to come up with workable exemptions to allow medical use, that is for the governments law writers to work out. They have to draft laws that have the desired effect without unintended consequences all the time so you’ll be fine.

I haven't abandoned anything. I think you have lost track of who you are arguing with, and why!

I have consistently been arguing from this position. If you look at all of my contributions to this thread it has been from the position of disability.

I am immunocompromised. I have been assaulted for wearing a mask.

Banning me from wearing a mask means I am effectively banned from public transport, shops and the workplace. I have said this over and over and over.

As I have said, repeatedly, no one has made any credible suggestions about how "medical exemptions" to a face covering ban would work in practice. Saying medical exemptions are "up to lawmakers" is hardly a useful contribution, and is not reassuring to those of us that are raising concerns.

(I have also said that I don't like women being made to wear face coverings for religious reasons, but that the state forcing them to remove them is just as bad. But I am not going to get bogged down with that because (1) plenty other people are arguing that position, as I have also noted in previous posts, and (2) my main interest in this topic is my own ability to access services and the workplace.)

Apart from medical reasons there are no good reasons to disguise your identity in a public place.
The proliferation of masks and balaclavas has led to increased crime and anti social behaviour. It’s becoming an epidemic and police can’t always control the situation.If masks were banned the perpetrators could be identified . The knowledge that they could be identified and photographed would be a powerful deterrent

People can't be identified in sunglasses and a baseball cap - would you ban these too?

What's needed is more funding for the police, not pointless restrictions on the general public.

How exactly would preventing a woman wearing the niqab from leaving the house help prevent yobs pulling down a balaclava to rob a shop?

The proliferation of masks and balaclavas has led to increased crime and anti social behaviour.

No, it is the other way round. People don't go out and commit crimes just because they can procure a mask.

Criminals have always worn face coverings. We need to look to other reasosns for the growth in ASB (see above and TokTok craze) and shoplifting behaviours. There wasn't some halcyon time when armed robbers didn't disguise their identity.

The thing is you do not know and no one should have to present their medical information to prove they are entitled to wear a mask. You wouldn’t even know where to draw the line conditions wise. What entitles someone to wear one. I’m not currently entitled to a Covid booster for example but I still choose to wear a mask in indoor spaces.

The problem is the antisocial behaviour.
That’s what needs addressing.
Being photographed or CCTV isn’t a deterrent. It never has been.

How on earth would you police people wearing a face covering. If you were able to police that, you wouldn’t need the ban.

I don’t think face covering is ever good thing unless in medical situations. The niqab is not allowed in many Muslim countries.

Why do you think all these thugs are wearing face covering? Of course it emboldens them to behave in ways they otherwise wouldn’t

They’re thugs. They would do it anyway. Putting on a mask doesn’t suddenly make you want to go rob stuff and hurt people. It’s the behaviour not the mask.

Loads of people happily shoplift without a mask and always have. In fact wearing a mask now is more likely that you get noticed, trust me, and you’re more likely to be spotted shoplifting than not.

You cannot safeguard the “medical reasons” people - all that would happen (and does happen when this is applied) is those people already marginalised and having to take extra precautions suffer, their health suffers and they can’t join in with society safely.

You sort out the antisocial behaviour and lack of skills rather than punishing everyone and bringing in bonkers rules that you can’t even police. All that would happen is those people would still continue to wear a face covering (because they don’t care about rules) and all the law abiding ones who aren’t even the problem would follow them at their own detriment.

The masks allow thugs to travel in groups on bikes and grab phones, storm shops and make a quick getaway etc without being identified. You say thugs would do that anyway - and it’s true this behaviour is not new - but what is new is the scale and frequency of attacks- coupled with the ubiquitous use of face covering.

I agree up to a point - but the situation has got so bad that it seems folly to say it’s ok to allow gangs of youths to go around with their faces covered.
This is not like the old days when armed robbers wore balaclavas. I’m talking about an everyday occurrence.

I think it is much more likely to identify people with sunglasses and baseball cap . Nose mouth and chin are all visible

The masks don’t “allow” thugs to travel in groups on bikes, storm shops and leave. Thugs have been doing this for decades if not longer. Even with CCTV and cameras and photos these cases usually fall apart even if faces are visible.

Instead it would be better to tackle the reasons they are going round in groups. Again. That’s not new either.

It’s not more common. You are just hearing about it more and creating your own echo chamber. And posts like this to dog whistle others.

Again banning face coverings won’t help with this anyway. If they had staff enough to police the face coverings they would have staff enough to police the groups. All that will happen is law abiding people will comply, the thugs will not.

You’re creating a problem not a solution with this.

I absolutely agree .

It’s a MUCH bigger problem now than ever before. Perhaps you don’t see it where you live ?
I know instances of children bringing balaclavas in their school bags so they can get up to no good when they are out of school. It’s becoming very common for young people to gather in groups with covered faces .

That’s absolutely laughable.
”you’ll be fine” no - actually. I know several people who are medically vulnerable and mask. They have been stopped by police in areas where section are applied even though a medical exemption exists.
Once it’s happened - it’s too late. The damage has been done.

Haha “have faith in your oppressors”. In a world that is ableist at best - this is not a good look.

So spend the resources on getting to the bottom of the groups and the antisocial behaviour. And meeting up-skill needs and provisions in these areas to prevent the behaviour. Ask why there are groups of kids going riding round after school.

If you want to implement stupid rules then put those kids under curfew. Ban groups. It would make the same end.