To wonder why teachers say they don’t have flexibility - isn’t this the solution?

[Greeao]

I could be being quite naive here but chatting away with friends this afternoon, two of whom
are teachers, they were saying they have no flexibility and ’literally can’t go to the doctor on a work day.’ This was in comparison to other jobs in the group which were office based.

Surely you can go to an appointment at 5pm or 6pm in some doctor surgeries? Then for dentist and non urgent care you’d go in the half terms or holidays?

Similarly I don’t understand the issue with schools plays etc, surely it’s feasible to go to some of these events as not all half terms and holidays are the same for all schools and not every event is in the day time. For instance at our local school play starts at 5pm.

It’s not a goady post, I was just reflecting on my drive home and perhaps I don’t get the industry?!

Teachers: “we can’t take time off because xyz, it is really difficult”
You: “but is it though?”
🙄

A quick word here in support of the teachers.
I've been on both sides of the fence. Teacher for over 20 years, s/e in industry for five, wages similar.
The first 2 years I was out of teaching I didn't take a holiday, not because I'm a suck-up but because I didn't need to. A 14 hour day in my industry is way, way easier than a 14 hour day in teaching. (12-14 hour days in teaching are not uncommon).

Also the 'surely you have autonomy as a teacher' comment. I don't do laughing out loud but this raised a wintry smile. You really don't. I can't coherently state how disrespected most teachers are. You are not treated as a professional until you his senior leadership/management level. If anybody in industry was spoken to the way that we were spoken to as teachers, they'd down tools and get the union involved.

Have you ever met a nurse, police officer, paramedic, social worker?

Teachers who have zero flexibility are in badly run schools.

In our state primary, they have people who can cover a class if a teacher needs to go to a medical appointment - there's a part time senco who doesn't have a class or the headmistress will cover.

Yes as a teacher you might miss things like sports day but so do all working parents!! I work in an office and I can't use up all my annual leave going to stuff like sports day and harvest assembly, I don't have enough leave to cover school holidays as it is.

Its not really that common to have loads of urgent medical appointments as a healthy adult though is it? I haven't had one in years, the last time I went i was having a coil fitted and my sister who is teacher just had hers done in half term.

OMG, you have no idea! 😅 but also thank you for acknowledging that some of it is shocking

That would be a reasonable expectation, tbf, and I think this is part of the problem.

Parents reasonably assume that teaching is family friendly because most people's experience of it is that we support children and their families in a multitude of ways. So why wouldn't that be extended to teachers and their families? After all, most schools will promote the idea that we are a family and a community. And the teachers are always (usually) so caring and lovely and wonderful and speak so positively about the school and the children we teach... it's only be the workshy few who only went into it for the holidays who complain! Or the idiots who don't have the common sense to just request an evening GP appointment...

Teaching terms and conditions have recently changed in Scotland and it is a very different job to it is in England at the moment with no sense of this being replicated down here.

Part of the problem is that the role and the environment of teaching have changed so much since I entered it 20+ years ago.

There is a lot.of inconsistency that goes along with the micromanagement. The best example I have of it is this.

I had a child in my class with ADHD. I made a simple reasonable adjustment that allowed him to concentrate during teaching input. He listened to everything I said and, when I asked a question to check understanding, he could give me a really detailed answer. He remained regulated, engaged and focused for a whole time doing this. Brilliant.

We had a learning walk where the focus was Inclusion.

This child was positively acknowledged to me in my feedback. I was told it was great and that I'd shown a great understanding of his needs and adaptability. They liked the way I'd responded to his needs and how I'd 'thought outside the box' by allowing this small reasonable adjustment. Fairly standard stuff but positive so that's great 👍🏻

The following week, the same person did a learning walk focused on Expectations.

Guess what? The same child was highlighted as an example of how my expectations weren't high enough. The same reasonable adjustment was now an example of my poor behaviour management, and that he appeared disengaged and I should manage his behaviour appropriately instead. All the things that had looked great through the lens of Inclusion were seen as me failing through the lens of Expectations.

How can anyone exercise professional autonomy under those conditions?

Teachers who have zero flexibility are in badly run schools.

I agree. Unfortunately, this is becoming an increasingly common problem.

That's a different argument. The point was that any holiday we take, and the poor buggers who live with us, is usually double the price. For our entire career, because we don't have flexibility. And that's before you look at how much of that holiday is compensating for the hours worked in term time/weekends. Or how much of the holiday is spent prepping/ doing revision classes etc

I don't think teaching was ever really "family friendly" around young kids.

I am early 40s. My mother was a primary teacher and when I was a child what was quite normal was for a teacher to train and teach a few years, then stop for about 10 years when their own children were young, then return to teaching. Lots did supply teaching in schools close to their own home when their own kids were young as a supply teacher could pretty much march out of the door at 3.15. Kids could be left in the school playground from about 8am when the kids were unlocked and could be left waiting at the gate after school. My mum use to drop me early in the playgroundand then go to teach supply at a school 5 min drive across town, then I'd be the last kid waiting to be collected at the end of the day as she came back.

The poster was specifically sharing her experiences as a teacher. Of course other jobs have challenges like teaching does. No one has said otherwise.

That's ridiculous! Were those observations made by a qualified teacher or was this one of the managers with no teaching experience that others have spoken about?

Things do seem to be much better in Scotland. Granted my experience is limited to a small number of schools but my friends who teach are able to organise cover amongst their department when necessary and are able to attend things like school events, extended family funerals, GP appointments and as I've already said they seem to get a decent amount of time for preparation during working hours. I think generally as a manager if you show people they are valued and give them flexibility where possible you tend to get the most out of them as workers. It's ashamed that principle isn't being applied to the profession of teaching.

And my last comment because I'm going out for the afternoon!

I'm sure you don't know much about the terms and conditions in my profession, although it is likely that you or a family member or friend has come in contact with it.

This is very true.

I only have experience of jobs I have done personally. And knowledge of professions my friends and family work in.

But I know that and I don't presume to be able to challenge, dispute or disregard what they say because i assume otherwise. I might listen; I might be surprised but I wouldn't presume my imagination trumps their word.

And that happens a lot when teaching is discussed as this thread shows!

I just think teachers think their job is more inflexible than everyone else's. I feel like they must discuss all the downsides of teaching in the staffroom every day and then be bursting to tell people they meet.
There are plenty of inflexible jobs. There are also lots of people with more flexible jobs than teaching.

I worked from home in a flexible job.
I couldn’t get an appointment with my gp for over 2 weeks and that was being available at any time and being able to stay on hold every morning.

When I was a teacher I wasn’t allowed my phone on hold in a classroom full of kids or in a staff meeting.
I also could not have time off just to attend a doctors appointment.

Why do you think your friends are lying or so stupid that they just hadn’t thought of getting a later appointment.

This isn’t a nail appointment, it is literally regarding their health and could potentially turn out to be life limiting or threatening and you are suggesting that they haven’t thought about just booking a later appointment 🙈

I am glad you are not a teacher.

I am not a teacher and have a fairly flexible job. It still took 7 weeks to book a GP appt I could get to!

My eyes have been opened to the “out of hours” commitments of secondary school teachers since my DC have been that age and I am impressed and astonished.

7 years in a secondary school + Sixth form x 2 sides of timetable x 2 parents meetings a year - that’s 28 parents’ meetings (assuming you teach all year groups) - that’s before concerts, plays, DoE, school trips, sports fixtures, meetings about school trips, options evenings, award evenings, open evenings for prospective Y7 and Y12, exam certificate presentations, detentions, revision sessions, referrals and anything pastoral. I am pretty certain that any of the teachers that parents expect to see will be berated by the same parents if they are not available. Fair play to teachers!

Of course there are plenty of inflexible jobs but no one starts threads about why those professionals can’t just get a later doctors appointment.

It’s not teachers moaning about the inflexibility of their job.
It’s other people suggesting that their job is flexible and then they have to defend themselves and explain why it’s not.

Look for any other thread that is about any other professions lying about their jobs not being flexible - you won’t find one.

But a meeting not finishing until 5pm/not being able to leave until 5pm is an everyday occurrence for most people. Your staying 'late' for this meeting, would be most people's leaving work early.

There are many issues with teaching where I think complaining is justified, and no it's not very flexible during term time. But complaining about an occasional meeting finishing at a time when most people are still at work is baffling.

Suspect she means that it’s not always appropriate to take an 8 yr old with you into your appointment and you can’t leave them unattended at home or the surgery waiting room. I had to leave my son in the car while I had a smear last year. Far from ideal

This thread wasn’t started by a teacher. It was started by a poster making an assumption about teachers. Teachers have come along and explained their own experiences.

If they've been in since/just after 7am, it's not the same as those people who start at 9, though, is it?

How? DH is a teacher and whilst he can go to the doctors in term time you have to get it approved and cover has to be arranged. As for getting the appointment, if a GP surgery is only open at say 8:30 how does he get the appointment? He can’t sit on the phone redialling for half an hour.

I finished the meeting at 5pm. I didn’t finish work at 5pm. That’s when I went back to my classroom. I’d also been at work since 7.30am.

Most teachers will be scheduling their non-urgent dentist and doctor jobs in the holidays anyway but sometimes emergencies occur on work days.

What do you think the likelihood of getting a 5pm or 6pm appointment is?! They are as rare as hens teeth. If they are offered an appointment at another time, they can only go if cover is either found or paid for by the school. Furthermore, most teachers have tutor time or classes commencing at 8.30am so can’t even do the 8.30am GP surgery ring-up ordeal.

It’s not impossible but it is inflexible. I’m struggling to understand how you can’t see it’s inflexible. A teacher is responsible for their own class each day so if they aren’t present, a replacement has to be found at a cost to take that class. How is that not easy to understand?!

This (and other reasons) is why I am glad I work in a boarding school. We don’t have to be on site unless we are teaching, which gives a bit of flexibility and the teaching load is less as the co-curricular and pastoral load is much higher. We’d afternoon is sports so I always try to book appointments for then.

My tutor group is much smaller and I have a parallel tutor group - so if needed we can combine the two (eg when I needed to pop the kittens to the vets for 8.30). Which just doesn’t work if the tutor group is already 30kids.

Plus there is a doctor that comes to site twice a week so it is actually possible to make an appointment with them (so long as they have space pupils have priority), but nurses to take bloods etc….

Lots of downsides too (working 6 days a week is tiring) but on balance I like it.

Its not really that common to have loads of urgent medical appointments as a healthy adult though is it? I haven't had one in years, the last time I went i was having a coil fitted and my sister who is teacher just had hers done in half term

Ermm....what? Lots of teachers, literally thousands of us. Whole host of conditions possible that might need consultant care, appointments, monitoring visits with a GP. You are lucky not to have experience of any condition with this kind of requirement.

But you have all summer off, Christmas
off, Easter off…I mean you can’t have it every way!

Right. Got it. I had a mammogram recently (rescheduled for the Feb half term actually) which requires further investigation. It was scheduled for last week - also holiday as luck would have it - but they cancelled. It will now go ahead during term time. Are you seriously suggesting I should wait till the next holiday - 6 weeks away when I am potentially growing cancer inside me right now? Because fucking hell, I need a new job. I teach a shortage area subject - remember that when your kids are in a hall with a 100 others cos the school can't find staff.

Jesus fuckjng wept.

I was talking about the holiday issue when I said that! Not doctors/medical appointments.