To wonder why teachers say they don’t have flexibility - isn’t this the solution?

[Greeao]

I could be being quite naive here but chatting away with friends this afternoon, two of whom
are teachers, they were saying they have no flexibility and ’literally can’t go to the doctor on a work day.’ This was in comparison to other jobs in the group which were office based.

Surely you can go to an appointment at 5pm or 6pm in some doctor surgeries? Then for dentist and non urgent care you’d go in the half terms or holidays?

Similarly I don’t understand the issue with schools plays etc, surely it’s feasible to go to some of these events as not all half terms and holidays are the same for all schools and not every event is in the day time. For instance at our local school play starts at 5pm.

It’s not a goady post, I was just reflecting on my drive home and perhaps I don’t get the industry?!

There are many jobs where it is easier to turn up ill, especially if you are in a senior position, for example you are the only person that has the most knowledge about client work and your presence will mean winning the contract or not or do example, if you manage a global team or are in one, you have to be available most evenings for meetings online.

I chose this post to respond to mainly because of the last sentence.

There are frequently threads like this about 'all teachers' and how we have it easy or constantly complain or think we have the hardest job in the world, or don't have a clue what it's like in the real world.

They're rarely started by teachers.

But they tend to go...

Why do all teachers think/believe/do..?

And then teachers respond to explain because the assertion is rarely true or even close to it. And because we stupidly believe that people will have the intelligence/imagination to understand.

There you go again! Complaining! Teachers think they have the hardest job in the world!

No we don't. The difference is that no one is on here complaining about other professions. So they don't need to defend themselves.

People don't have a single conversation with a solicitor, shop worker, plumber and think they've uncovered a universal truth about them and trip over themselves to post on MN about it.

WRT flexibility, I worked in one school where the HT prioritised work life balance. If we ran an after school club or did overnight residentials, we were able to build up flexibility time and book TOIL. Most schools don't allow that- I don't know of a single other school that I or any of my friends have worked at that has allowed it. If parents at my school thought that was standard, they'd be wrong.

I worked in another where we took the children to the theatre once a year. On that day, I always worked 16+ hours and was paid for my standard day (8.45-3.45). So 10+ hours unpaid overtime in one day with no TOIL. Schools are not comparable in this way. It depends on the HT and the governing body and what they prioritise.

Some schools will allow you to finish half an hour earlier for a GP appointment. Others won't unless you have an OH care plan in place for a medical condition and even then some will be difficult about it. Some teachers can pop out in their lunch hour to the dentist others aren't permitted to leave the premises or have duties that mean they can't.

There was a post last year or so that compared teaching to being a steel worker in a factory (for some reason). Saying that teaching was easier. My partner is actually a steel worker in a factory so I know first hand the difference. I'm not going to say who has the harder job. It's impossible because they're just not comparable - his is physically harder; mine is mentally and emotionally harder.

But what I will say is that he can book a day off when he needs to. We both get into work for 7am. When he finishes for the day at 3pm, he can go to the supermarket, drive to his mum's and mow her lawn and get home in time to start dinner before I've even left work. He can then go out for the evening with his friends. I rarely bring work home from school but I don’t go out in the evening during term time because I'm shattered and go to bed at 9pm.

Our gross salary is the same. But he picks up more than me every month because every 15 minutes he works past 3pm is paid. He does overtime and can pick up an extra few hundred pounds a month. I do 4 hours a day overtime every day and get nothing.

And, yes, all salaried professions work longer than their contracted hours but I've never met one (outside of medicine) where it's required routinely every day to the tune of 4 hours. And their pay is usually higher to reflect that. And they're not routinely working 4 hours a day for nothing.

That's not a complaint. It's an explanation. I get far more hugs than my partner does, I can be told I'm loved 5 times before lunch and I make a difference to small peoples lives. I have far better, "You'll never guess what happened at work today..." stories than he does but, equally, he's never been assaulted at work and, if he were, that person would be dismissed. He wouldn't be asked what he did to deserve it, told to build better relationships and then be forced to work with that person the next day.

Again, not a complaint but a reflection of reality.

Teaching isn't harder than every other job in the world but it is hard and exhausting. The only reason teachers ever need to say that is to counter the accusations that it's easy and the misconceptions about what it actually looks like. No one gives a second thought to what an average day for any other profession looks like. No one starts threads about it.

And you can't speak to one teacher in one school and extrapolate from that that you know all teachers and all schools any more than you would speak to a community midwife about their day and think you understand what A&E on a Friday night is like.

Yet, still people try... 🙄

There are many jobs where it is easier to turn up ill, especially if you are in a senior position, for example you are the only person that has the most knowledge about client work and your presence will mean winning the contract or not or do example, if you manage a global team or are in one, you have to be available most evenings for meetings online.

See, I completely understand that.

I have friends who work in roles like this.

The main differences I would say are this.

The people I know who work in these roles are paid significantly more than me.

They are respected and treated as competent professionals in the work place and not micromanaged. They are trusted professionals who are treated with respect. Some MATs have introduced lesson scripts. Some teachers are required to not only plan the lessons and create the resources but provide the exact script they are going to use in the lesson. It's not possible to do and be adaptive/responsive in your teaching.

Whilst they're doing that role (ill), they're not simultaneously breaking up a fight, finding out why someone is crying, managing constant low level disruptions, because the people they are working with are also professional adults and not cognitively overwhelmed chidren who may have additional needs, trauma and behavioural issues.

And at the end of it, no one is going to come along and criticise them or put them on a support plan for straying from the script or not noticing that little Jimmy was looking out of the window at one point.

That's why it's not comparable.

What a ridiculous post. I don’t know where to begin with it. One point I could make is that my GP practice insists on telephone consultations for routine appointments. We obviously can’t answer our phones and discuss our needs in the middle of a lesson.

Well said!
The grief teachers on here is unreal.

You made the correct point in your first sentence, you are being naive.
I work term-time in a nursery. I miss out on a lot of my children’s nursery and school events because I am looking after other people’s children. We have to adhere to strict ratios, I can’t just up and leave every time there is a stay and play or a sports day. I work in the same local authority my children’s school is in - that means our holidays are exactly the same.
Working in education is inflexible - that’s just the nature of the beast. It is the price I pay to have the holidays off with my kids and not scramble for childcare.

Have you tried telling a washing machine repair man that he has to come at 6.00pm or asking for an appointment with a hospital consultant in the evening? DS is a primary school teacher and went in with the flu because the school has run out of money for supply teachers. Being allowed a day for a wedding or a funeral is at the discretion of the HT and I was never able to go to my children’s school performances - my mother went instead. Meant to say, that it is impossible to get an appointment at our surgery without filling in an e-consult and speaking to someone first. Teachers can’t take phone calls.

As a teacher, non emergency appts haven’t been a problem - dental check up, optician, physio etc, all private and easily arranged around the job well in advance.
Anything to do with the NHS is pretty impossible to do outside working hours. Appts have had to be at specific ‘clinics’ which are only held at certain times. It makes attending and follow up quite tricky. Of course I can always ask for time off, but that involves sharing more info than I feel comfortable doing. Also cover is provided reluctantly, by the minute (I receive texts - when will you be back etc)
DH does a non teaching role, if he has an appt he just WFH that day, pops off to the appt and no one is the wiser.

I recently wrote an assignment about teacher pay and flexibility. The research shows that women in their thirties are leaving teaching in droves, not because of the pay (though it's worse than other professions with equivalent training and responsibilities) but because of the lack of flexibility.

We suck it up until we become parents and then the reality of it means that we just can't make it work so we quit or go very part time.

This is why there is currently a teaching crisis.

Anecdotally, it's the men in teaching who are disproportionately represented in senior leadership because, you guessed it, they have wives at home and the lack of flexibility doesn't hit them the same.

I'm a single teacher parent. I leave for work at 6.30am and have to sprint out the door earlier than is acceptable to make it to after school club pickup. I only work four days a week, with the resulting hit on my salary and pension.

I have to do this because the alternative would be NEVER, and I do mean never meeting my child's teachers. My child can't do clubs or sports on my working days because we get home, eat a dinner that takes no more than five minutes to cook and then it's bedtime. I cram all appointments/car services/jobs/things I can't fit into my working days into my unpaid day, and I only manage to just about make the money and time work because I'm relatively senior, experienced and know how to give just the right amount of shits.

Schools use teaching assistants to cover teachers. I know if im off it’ll be teaching assistants who cover me. They are great (and I’ve heard many say ‘I could be a teacher/im as good as teacher) but they aren’t teachers and don’t have the control over the class I do, the ability to adapt planning last minute, are not able to respond to difficult parents as effectively etc. Im going off my own experience, I know of one teaching assistant who could do most of the above to a high standard. My point is, I feel guilty because I know the cover won’t be another teacher and the children are the ones being impacted.

Yep.

Our SLT (HT, DHT, AHTs) are all men for this reason.

We only have one male teacher in our teaching staff.

We have a disproportionate amount of part time female teachers all taking the hits you describe for these reasons. There are no TAs outside of Early Years in our school.

We were talking the other day about this and one of the biggest changes we've noticed is in toilet breaks.

Our previous HT was female and, during wet breaktimes, she would direct other SLT to come round and offer comfort breaks to teachers who needed it.

Since having a male HT/SLT, it hasn't happened once.

That means that we can be in class for several hours without the opportunity to go to the toilet.

Our female staff includes at any one time pregnant women, menopausal women, menstruating women with no opportunity to go the toilet. No TA to cover for two minutes and we can't leave the class unattended. We can send a child to the office with a message asking for someone to come and cover us but there is no guarantee they can or will come.

I've felt ill from not being able to go to the loo or restricting my water intake and leaked through sanitary protection and had to go home at lunch to shower and change my clothing (taking up my whole lunch break and meaning I have to stay even later to complete work I couldn't do during lunch).

I have on occasion asked the passing caretaker or a member of kitchen staff or SLT to stand in my room so I can go to the loo. But that's pure chance.

We face the same issue on days when we do playground duty (twice a week). We're not allowed to leave the playground so no loo break.

The only other profession where I'm aware of this being a significant issue is nursing. The main difference is people think its shit that nurses work in these conditions. Teachers just have to think of the holidays.

Unfortunately, I can't hold in a wee for that long!

It can vary by school, but generally there is no flexibility. Most teachers barely have time to check their phones during the school day. Leaving early to attend an appointment can make you feel incredibly behind for the next day. It can be hard to phone to make the appointment when setting up first thing for the day ahead. Lots of teachers now arrive at 7am-7.30am and have done loads before the children arrive just to stay afloat. Teachers are quickly disciplined if they are off for their own or their children’s illnesses.

In terms of attending events, one of the main reasons I knew I was resigning as soon as I had my eldest. My school allowed 1 hour per year for school events including travel time, so impossible for colleagues whose own children attended village schools near their homes after being priced out of living in our city. Similarly for my DH, he could only attend 40 mins of 1 of our DC’s Sports Day the whole year, had to clock watch and literally run back to the car as deputy head covering, he was timed to the minute according to the policy, despite 15 years of loyalty and working flat out as a full time class teacher. He refuses to move school as it’s so close to our DCs, otherwise he would not be able to travel to see anything in the allocated time allowance.

Teachers are highly micromanaged in every way, I think many would be shocked if they experienced the full extent of their micromanagement generally.

I work 8:00-4:30 and i always get one after work when possible. I’m off this Thursday and taking my two dc to the dentist at 9:30. Of course these things can be done!!

Most of the time, they call you back at an unspecified time during the day and it's hit or miss whether you're actually available. That's what happens at my gp practice anyway - usually a same day call back, but unspecified time. Then if they need to physically examine you, it's also usually the same day/ during the day. Teachers (and other public sector workers - including those working shifts) have even less flexibility than the rest of us.

In my area they've opened a GP Hub for those who struggle with daytime appointments. It's open till late.

For a profession based around children it’s incredibly inflexible for staff and their own children. One of the reasons there is a recruitment and retention issue is due to poor work/life balance.

When do you book these appointments?

Tbh, getting an appointment after school or attending the appointment is the 'easy' bit. Booking it in the first place is where most teachers struggle.

At my GP surgery, you call at 8am and then sit in a queue that can last 40 mins. My phone has to he locked away in a locker by 8.30 because I have to be in my classroom by then. Without my phone.

And that's the end of me booking an appointment usually.

If you do get to speak with someone before 8.30, you're told a GP will call back between 9 and 12. Oh. But my phone is locked away at 8.30.until 12.30 (when lunch starts). So the best I can hope for is a missed call.

I can't even call over lunch because my surgery phone lines are closed between 12 and 2pm.

And that's the end of that.

This is what I meant before when I said we stupidly believe people will have the intelligence and imagination to understand if we explain. Because this has been explained several times already on this and many other threads and, yet, too many people still don't understand that if your phone is locked away in a different room, or even just switched off in a bag under your desk, you can't use it.

This is part of a much bigger issue. I made an 8am appointment for bloods which I was told was the first of the day. I did this because I don't have time to wait around - if I'm not working, I'm not earning & I'm also a carer so my schedule is really tight. I was still sat waiting until 8.40 while a stream of older men went in before me. It's not on. First & last hour of each day should be for workers only. And there should be penalties for surgeries that consistently abuse people's time.

In the car on the way home sometimes…

lol at my last school I had to get cover to ring my GP - people were good about it but it was still a pain - ditto medical appointments - also people seem to have no concept of I can’t take a phone call before 3.30 because I teaching

So when you were chatting with your teacher friends, it didn’t occur to you to actually ask them why they don’t have flexibility rather than start a Mumsnet thread where non teachers can comment on a job they don’t do?

I got married in February half term of 2022.

We needed to give notice at our local registry office which is open 8-4. It’s about 40 minutes from my school, my hours of work are 830-330.

We arranged to do it over October half term but they were short staffed due to Covid. Then at Christmas apparently ‘deaths were prioritised.’ I asked to come in slightly later one day (when I had PPA anyway) to let me do it.

The answer was No.

‘am I expected to cancel my wedding?’ I asked.
’no, we just need you to do it in your own time.’

Right …

My hair dresser has a system where they ring you in the week before you attend (one a Saturday obviously) to check you’re attending. I can never answer the phone when they ring so have to ring at 7.30 when I arrive at school and leave an answer phone message that I will be coming.

I also remember having a uti and going into
work. I was on hold with the GP appointment line from 8.00- 8.45am and had to stand in the corridor while the children were coming in as I finally got to the front of the queue and was trying to explain my symptoms discretely with children walking past me and a TA in my classroom (who then wasn’t doing her morning intervention group).

I work until 5 pm and live an hour away from work. It’s not possible to get a drs appointment during term time for this reason and you aren’t allowed time off to go.

I’ve had similar. I had to explain in front of my form about my children’s ear infections: it obviously wasn’t anything I really mind them knowing but it isn’t the point.

I am so sick of teaching. But earn too much! 😩😂

The idea that teachers can never take time off doesn’t match with my daughter’s school experience. She has often reported that she had a different teacher because a teacher was at an appointment or their child was sick or for a number of reasons. Is it really as hard and fast as people claim it is?