Is MN feeding unhealthy attitudes towards men?

[Grtscott]

Some threads I've read this morning have helped me to realise that my thinking about men has changed since joining MN. And not in a good way.

There's an undertone that men need to do things the woman's way, or it's wrong. That men should be grateful for any sex that women are willing to give in a long term relationship, even if that peters out to no sex at all.

Men are seen to be babies who can't do anything for themselves, and need to have someone pre plan and organise their lives, but god forbid they fall into the pattern of behaviour of expecting their female partner to do these things for them, as that's what they've always done.

This thinking is observable to a greater or lesser extent across the boards.

I've also recognised where this thinking has affected the way I think about my wonderful man, and sometimes in things I've said to him or actions towards him. I need to watch this in future.

I'm concerned that the general thinking about men on this website can't be good for society if this is the way women think, and are encouraged to think by others.

If women treat men this way collectively and have low expectations around them, no wonder the bar is getting lower.

I partly agree with you op and I’ll get to why in a minute. But I’ve also been on mn for a very long time. And until quite recently, it was one of the most amazing places for quietly organising help and support for desperate women in terrible situations.

I wanted to write a thesis about it ten years ago but the ethics committee came to the conclusion that it could be harmful to the greater good to explicitly explore the mechanisms of support in a non related setting, and risked exposing vulnerable people, so I had to drop that.

Most other websites give terrible advice to women in dangerous situations. I don’t disagree with you that MN, on balance may give bad advice to women in fundamentally good relationships. But there are literally hundreds of sources for us to choose from.

I agree that there is a bias of negativity and suspicion towards men here, and in the normal ups and downs of life, seeing the best in each other is generally a good idea.

However in the context of of abuse, a woman’s capacity to recognise normal is often badly eroded, and having posters pick apart the fairly innocuous op, has often led to horrific revelations that she hasn’t been able to contextualise.

significantly this is a phenomenon of social media specifically - it doesn’t occur in the same way in general conversation outside of the somewhat artificial zones like counselling, therapy and group support.

What MN was doing exceptionally well years ago, and now to a lesser extent because of targeting by bad actors, was saving lives.

It’s not happening in a systematic or organised way anywhere else online. Just MN.

Never tell me I haven't been able to bitch about how shit Angela Rayner and Rachel Reeves are...

I think the thing that is very different about MN (and that misogynistic men hate about it) is that unacceptable male behaviours are called out for what they are. No excusing or minimising or gas lighting just putting the accountability where it properly lies and not asking women to make be responsible for men’s behaviour. And thank goodness for that.

PICK ME!

Well you certainly are able to!

But you'll be accused of being a misogynist and putting women down, or some such.

If you can evidence your extrapolation with robust data, it's valid.

ONS:
Women carry out an overall average of 60% more unpaid work than men.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/womenshouldertheresponsibilityofunpaidwork/2016-11-10

Britsoc:
Men in households where the woman was employed did not do more housework than men in households where the women were unemployed.
https://www.britsoc.co.uk/media-centre/press-releases/2017/march/women-do-more-housework-than-men-even-when-their-partners-are-unemployed/

And there is more. So much more!

I agree. There's a lot of double standards, there's a lot of anger and negativity towards men in general. Of course, it's easy to get sucked in. VAWG is a serious problem. Misogyny is a serious problem. But I feel like the prevalent anti-men attitude misses the point. Misogyny and the macho culture in society harms men and boys in different, but very valid ways. We can't tackle it without them.

I teach and I can see so much misogyny and poor behaviour from boys that really stems from self esteem. They don't feel manly enough. They are expected to act a certain way, dress a certain way, believe certain things, or society will say they are not good enough. Men who are effeminate, physically weak, or don't conform are punished in a way that I don't think women are.

I think about recent threads which advocate for banning all men from childcare settings. Threads on which people lose their collective minds when boys want to wear a skirt/leggings/ballet pumps. Threads full of women saying they wouldn't date men who can't drive, or don't earn enough. Oh, and threads which state men and women can't be friends. (My best friend is a man and my husband had a 'best woman' at his wedding)

There's very little sympathy for men, and sometimes they really do deserve it.

Exactly. And I agree with you about the misandry, though some on MN will tell you there's 'no such thing'.

It might be useful to think about it in terms of the kind of posts on MN. You’re obviously not getting people coming on to post “my DH always does his fair share, we never argue and he cooked a great dinner tonight”.

People are posting when they are frustrated, need to vent, and feel their DH is being useless or worse. Logically people will agree and share that frustration.

You can’t possibly think that is representative of everyone’s relationship, or day to day experience.

🍿

Only if you do it in a misogynistic way that puts women down. Both those women - as is the case for many women in the public eye, especially left wing ones - have been given horrible demeaning nicknames like 'Rachel from Accounts' and much worse and highly sexualised for Rayner. I've never heard anyone referring to Nigel Farage's cock in any context whatsoever - he may be called a cock but that's not the same thing. In a world where women are still structurally oppressed and subject to systematic misogyny, there's a distinct difference - in the same way as you can't be racist towards white people (can open, worms everywhere).

Yes thats the person starting the thread though

I think OP is talking in general (and Im referencing this), about the other posters replying and the general tone

Agree with all of this. I particularly loathe the pervading attitude that any man who works with children or wants to must have a dodgy ulterior motive.

Yep, this is a women's forum and it logically follows that a lot of the problems they'll be discussing are problems with their relationship, ie men. It's not misandry, it's just statistics.

I don't think misandry exists anyway except in incel and perhaps lesbian separatist circles.

No i think for myself.
It's their piss poor obnoxious behaviour that makes me feel less than keen on them. I can name a few good men but I the whole they are shit and mums net isn't why I think that. Its poolside bollock washing, public phlegming oh and the sexual harassment since early teens.

Yes I agree OP. I think overall attitudes are very unhealthy. Sometimes it's wrapped up in humour but you can tell the underlying messaging is deadly serious. It's that I find most concerning.

Same. I don't want to date since my marriage ended a few years ago but that's not because of what I've read on MN, it's because I've yet to meet a man I'd want to date.

So you post a thread venting your frustration at your DH's brainless mistake that's cost you money, time & effort or worry. You seem to be thinking it'd be appropriate for loads of women to turn up and tell you their husbands never make brainless mistakes?

I can promise you it would not!

I agree completely that men are treated unfairly when they come here. Particularly when a separated Dad dares to question the way the mother is doing things. Or even when they don't come here, women calling their ex partner an abusive narcissist are usually met with an enthusiastic chorus of support regardless of if the detail suggests that he's done nothing wrong and she's the problem.

It's also true that the men described on here often really are absolutely dreadful and have no business being anywhere near a woman or a child.

I don't agree that it affects the way I relate to my own husband at all, if anything I appreciate him a little more. I am not influenced much by what strangers online think.

Im not sure how you read that into my post, its so off the mark!!!

Oh don't get me started on all the threads where poster after poster lines up to declare that men who are short, or not high earners, or shy, or upset, or vulnerable, or bisexual, give her the ick. To me, learning about feminism and gender theory was what allowed me to unlearn all the traditional gender roles I'd been brought up with, both for men and women. It generally seems on MN that posters are happy with every traditional gender role except that men should do housework as well.

(Which is such a pointless thing to argue from a feminist standpoint. Yes, men should do equal amounts of chores and parenting. That's sorted out in my relationship. No one can step in and sort it out in yours though.)

I wouldn't be that kind to incels, many have had no experience with women.

People don't say misandry doesn't exist. They say it doesn't exist as the equal opposite to misogyny, which it's so often framed as.
Some women do hate men because they are men. However the instances of this on here are grossly exaggerated, and the term 'misandry' often thrown around with gay abandon whenever women discuss patterns of male behaviour.
The more pertinent point though, is that while misandry exists, it largely remains a emotion in the mind of individual women, with no evidence that it translates to something that harms men on a societal level.
There is no evidence that 'misandrist' women do any more than malign men in discussion and avoid them in real life. There are no statistics to suggest that midandrists are posing a risk to the safety and wellbeing of men, unlike mysogynists who's behaviour has been described as a 'national epidemic' beyond the scope of policing.
If people find a reluctance to accept misandry as an issue of concern, then the onus lies with them to demonstrate that it is.

"Often" is doing all the heavy lifting there though.

Sex is sometimes a key element in the relationships between men and women. Equally, sex is sometimes absent from those relationships entirely.

Men often use friendship as a gateway to sex, and so do women. Men and women also use friendship as a gateway to nothing more than friendship, and those two sentences are not contradictory. (They also use friendship as a gateway to social status, career connections and many more ulterior motives. People are complex! Boiling it down to only sex is silly.)

Friendship between two people who are attracted to each other often leads to sex, but if one or both are in non-open relationships it often doesn't, unless one or both lacks moral fibre. I'm aware that affairs happen a great deal but "finding someone attractive and then doing nothing about it on account of already having a husband/wife" also happens a great deal, and is not as dramatic to talk about.

I'm not sure what your post is getting at.

What does women talking to each other on Mumsnet have to do with how they treat boys and men? Is there any indication that discussion of class violence online translates into women treating boys and men in harmful ways in real life? Because from what I see, women commenting on threads are generally very protective or fair-minded when it comes to the men they know, unless they're the OP, who's usually just venting.

Are you concerned that twelve-year-old boys might be reading the discourse on Mumsnet, and have their self-esteem damaged?

Your other comments aren't exactly accurate either. When it comes to men in ECE, the threads are usually split in opinion - ditto on women having high dating standards, or being friends, etc. There are very few where the overweening opinion is 'anti-men', or where most posters are in accord.

I'm sure The Men (TM) will be gratified to know of your sympathy, though.