Six year old trans girl ‘tries to cut off her penis’ after Guide ban

[JonesTown]

Quite a disturbing article in this morning’s Observer regarding the impact of the Guides’ ban on trans girls following the Supreme Court ruling.

It reports on the experience of one six year old trans girl named Emily after hearing she could no longer attend Rainbows:

Emily’s parents decided to be honest with their daughter about the situation, and explained that she was no longer able to take part in Rainbows because she was trans. A few hours later Curt said they found her “sobbing in her room” and were “shocked” to find her holding a pair of plastic scissors to her penis.

AIBU to find this a distressing consequence of campaign by anti-trans activists or is it a natural result of allowing such young children to change their gender identity?

Oh that's fine, I'm happy to use neo gender names and neo gender pronouns.

The only thing I won't do is utilise any pre-existing sex-based language to refer to gender, because that's clearly misleading and confusing.

Sex and gender are different as the existence of trans people proves, so it's daft to call them the same thing.

I mean, start down that route and you'll end up with utter stupidity like male rapists being reported as women, small boys thinking they are girls, or adult men in women's sports, simply because of a totally avoidable language mixup!

I know exactly what AI is thank you

It was a joke!!!

Genderist == Sexist
Transwoman == misogynist

Sex is not gender. Sex continues to exist entirely independently of gender, and therefore sexism continues to hurt female people entirely independently of who may or may not identify as a "woman", and that is why trans identifying men have no business in or right to the protections, rights, language, or history of female people.

HTH

There's a very funny exchange going on on Twitter at the moment where a rabid anti woman arsehole is arguing with For Women Scotland, clearly not having realised that they are the FWS who were the appellant in the Supreme Court judgement.

I was responding to the AI comments in general, not you specifically. Hence no quoted post.

Fair enough

I like to use

'AI says'

Like I would use -

What would Jesus do.

The win-win outcome of course would be that the friendship group, inspired by their friend's need, started their own mixed sex version of Rainbows that was open to both sexes, meaning that girls who thrived in a girls' only environment have what they need, and boys like the one who wanted to join Rainbows have a place where they can join in with boys and girls who thrive in a mixed sex environment.

But of course for people with the OP's mindset that is seen as a loss, because they only have a take mentality not a build mentality.

it is astounding and profoundly saddening that saying "I want what they have, I will build it here as well" never even crosses their mind. "I want what they have, they need to give it to me" followed by anger if their targets decline is the only possibility they seem to see😥

That is a very good point and something I've noticed too.

<doom scrolling whilst wife labours>

Come on love push

<notices trans parents blogs>

Oh well done love it's a boy.

<baby gurgles and smiles at pink blanket on bed>

$$ Oh look she is actually a girl. $$

If your child had said they "felt" or "just knew" they were Japanese, assuming of course you aren't Japanese, would you have agreed with surprise that apparently you have a Japanese child? Would you be telling us that you have no idea why, because there are no Japanese cultural stereotypes in how you treated them, and yet somehow, here you are?

Of course you wouldn't. Because that is ridiculous, right? Someone can love [their idea of] Japanese culture, can have a fixed idea that being Japanese would be right for them, but that doesn't actually make them Japanese. Being Japanese is a specific thing and your child is not it.

So why is Gender different? Why ifyour child says they are a different culture you'd say "No you aren't" but if they say they are a different sex you'd say "yes you are"?

Quite simply, because you see these things differently. You believe the first is impossible but the second is not, so you would meet the first with "of course you aren't, don't be silly" and the second with "well, maybe you are. Tell me about it".

You think it came entirely from your child but actually it was you as their parent who applied the decision that this is a "real" identity not a childish belief in something impossible.

(1) Of course a person can become legally Japanese by moving to Japan and gaining Japanese citizenship, but it doesn't happen because they have pre-existing intrinsic Japaneseness, it's because they pass some admin that is equally accessible to people who never felt Japanese a single day of their lives.

Well, because if "she" applies to a type of mind, or an undefinable feeling, what does that say about all the other "she"s in the world? Are we also people with that type of mind or undefinable feeling? Or if we are not, do we therefore need to identify out of "she" so the people who have the feeling can use it instead?

Half of humanity is female, give or take. It doesn't seem an unreasonable expectation to me that there should exist clear and unequivocal language that refers to us and only to us.

It really doesn't seem fair to say to half of humanity "sorry, you can't use she to refer to exclusively to female people any more because some male people feel like she too and it will make them sad if you don't let them. We know that means "she", and "woman" and "girl" don't have clear meanings any more but does that really matter? You still know who you are, right? You just can't clearly communicate that to anyone else any more, or base laws or policies on it, or oh gosh is that the time? Ah sorry I'd love to get into that but I have to go, I'll just put you down as a yes ok?"

Seems unnecessarily overreaching to take away the language of half of humanity just to label a feeling, no? Tiny bit overkill maybe?

The reason there are male and female categories is because biological males have an advantage over biological females - they are physically stronger and faster. A trans woman has the physical advantages of a biological male and so should not compete in the female category.
Incidently, I have no issue accepting trans women as females and referring to them as such, as long as they are adults and have the capacity to understand.

Incidently, I have no issue accepting trans women as females and referring to them as such, as long as they are adults and have the capacity to understand.

I'm curious what you actually mean by this, when you know that they are not females.

In what way do you think they are female? Or by putting the space between trans and women, do you mean women who think they're men, in which case I agree, I'd have no issue calling them female, as they are female.

I'm ok with that actually.

If you believe, as I do, that gender is a social construct, just a bundle of assumptions and expectations and constraints that people apply to us based on our sex, then saying society "assigns" you a gender[ed set of expectations] at birth because of your sex is pretty much exactly what happens.

Where I and the genderists part company of course is the batshit idea firstly that that this "gender" is innate, and secondly that it is both different to sex (so trans people can change it) but also interchangeable with sex (so we can't have single sex supports alongside gender, we have to accept trans people of the opposite sex into supposedly single sex provisions and use the same words interchangeably for sex and gender).

Which is quite obviously, when you look at it clearly, a "heads I win, tails you lose" bad faith proposition.

The link with autism is hugely important.

My autistic son is currently horrified that his moustache is slowly starting to grow. He absolutley hates it - the rough feeling of the hair and the way it looks. He has said several times that he wishes he was a girl so he wouldn't have to worry about these things.

However.... he in no way identifies as a girl. He is just struggling with natural adolescent changes. His autistic traits of sensory issues and struggling with change make it harder for him. I know autistic girls regularly have similar issues with starting periods etc. He needs sympathy and reassurance and I'm sure he'll be fine.

I don't have an issue referring to a trans woman by their preferred pronouns and talking to them as I would another woman.

That said, I don't believe trans people should have access to single sex spaces as the needs of biological women should not be dismissed in favour of trans women.

I realise that there will be people that jump on this and say it is mental health issues and delusions, but I believe that adults are in a position to understand how they feel and be able to articulate that. Perhaps it is - but access to counselling for trans people to receive this support has waiting lists of 4-5 years.

I have autistic children, that is completely different. It’s a sensory thing.

Really wish posters would stop lecturing parents going through this as to how to handle something that is hugely difficult and painful. You have no idea as you haven’t walked in their shoes so have zero qualifications from which to draw on and lecture .

But this is a confused position and I think it makes it much harder to stand your ground on single sex spaces.

If you are prepared to call a man 'she', how do you then turn around and tell 'she' that she should be going to the men's not the ladies?

How can a man be a woman for the purposes of pronouns, but not for the purposes of bathrooms/changing rooms?

I'm not sure what 'talking to them as I would another woman' means. Do you talk to women differently to men?

Part of the rationale for having single sex activities isn’t necessarily to stop one sex from doing certain activities, but to allow children of both sexes to enjoy all kinds of activities freely without the pressure of sexism, gender roles, or trying to play up to/impress/be embarrassed around the opposite sex.

For example, if boys and girls went camping together, would the boys try and take over the tasks that are seen as more “masculine”? Would girls feel embarrassed or unconfident doing more “masculine” tasks in front of boys, and vice versa - would boys try and shirk tasks seen as “feminine”? There is lots of research about how teenage girls start to shrink and take up less space around teen boys. (IIRC there is a chapter about it in Caroline Criado Perez’s book Invisible Women). So female only groups allow girls to express themselves more freely and gain confidence. And I think they are even more important in this era of “manosphere” bloggers and misogyny.

If you read enough threads, I think you’d realise that many on FWR have walked in exactly those shoes and many others have specific and even expert qualifications from which to draw and discuss.

In fact, look back two pages and you’ll see this very accusation posed and answered.

Trans women happen to have been assigned male at birth
I have nothing against you, @JonesTown. However, I do find that a very odd statement to make. You present thier sex assignation as random. This seems a strange thing to write as it is perfectly obvious why they have been assigned 'male'.
If you say things that don't make any sense, it's hard to take any of your arguments seriously.

So, what you're saying then, is a transwoman is only as much of a woman as you decide to allow 'her' to be? You know 'shes' not a woman, or you'd allow access to all areas, why would you not? But you are prepared to allow 'her' certain aspects of being a woman, at your own discretion, and withhold others as you see fit?
Do you think that's a better 'kinder' and more respectful way to treat a person than to own your belief that they're not a woman and engage with them honestly and consistently, so at least they know where they stand?

I think we all need to be more understanding and see each other as individuals rather than simply members of a specific identity group.
@JonesTown Why can't we be both ie individuals and members of a group? That's what actually happens in the world. Eg I am the individual me and a member of a family. There is no conflict.

I don't understand what you mean. What is different?

Diagnosed autistic people are several times more likely to identify as trans. It's not just a sensory issue or struggling with changes in puberty. Autistic children are often less interested in 'social norms'.

When younger my autistic child commonly chose from the girls clothes section they loved clothes with unicorns and sparkles. But they also loved dinosaurs and trucks. They just weren't in any way interested what other people thought. Its really typical for autisitc children. But it means nothing about gender. I couldn't easily have made it into that and ended up.with a trans kid.