To think that menopause talks at work might not be an entirely good thing?

[Wonderbug81]

We had a talk on menopause today at work. An outside speaker. About 10% of attendees were men (mainly younger) plus a mix of women of all ages.

The speaker went into a lot of detail about how debilitating perimenopause can be and the impact on work. She also talked through the support women can get both internally and through other orgs.

I know I should feel positive about all this but I couldn't help feeling that now people will just wonder whether any woman in their late 30s and above in our company (including me) is forgetting something or is 'off sick' because of their hormones.

I also feel a little uncomfortable that now, a lot more of my colleagues might now assume that if I am perimenopausal, I may have vaginal dryness and low libido among whatever else is wrong with me. Whether you have the symptoms or not it feels overly exposing and I have a couple of team members who would potentially exploit it as a vulnerability.

Please prove me wrong and tell me this is a positive move forward??

The truth is, the less we talk about our vulnerabilities, the better

I agree with this. Nothing good will ever come of publicly highlighting an inherent vulnerability of a class of the workforce like this.

At best you get a begrudging awareness that certain groups have limitations which may make them less able in their work. At worst you are providing an excuse tor these limitations to be weaponised.

A progressive employer should discreetly take menopause into consideration when managing staff. But this public handwringing and sharing of deeply intimate and embarrassing details with colleagues for whom its not relevant just weakens women’s confidence and standing at work.

That is such a depressing take on it.

As women, we should be striving for 50/50 balance at the top of all industries. How will we get there if the young women in the workplace today are being taught to talk less about their vulnerabilities? How will there ever be any change? This whole “act like a man” bullshit that was pedalled out at the start of my career needs to stop. These men at the height of leadership have SAH wives propping up their working lives.

I have spent my entire career working in male dominated industries. I now work in a female dominated company where the CEO, CFO and COO are all women (of which I am one). but my attitude has never changed. On every board I have sat on I have been very vocal for change.

I sincerely hope that when my DD is at my level, she will be sitting at a gender balanced board table where no one has to hide their vulnerabilities and no one is being managed out due to short term issues that should be easily managed through appropriate support.

Why? Why does all the information need to be signposted in the workplace? Do men with erectile dysfunction find out about viagra and penis pumps because they attended a talk at work? Do we know to check for breast lumps because HR have raised awareness? Do we get our cervical scans done in a mobile truck in the carpark at work at lunchtime? Do domestic violence charities come into to do talks at work? Do we get AA in to signpost to the younger workers that they may be overdoing it in the oub after work. No, we dont. Because these are personal, private, medical or social issues which, if they affect the person's ability to do their job, it is handled on a case by case basis between the person, their GP and, if necessary, HR, confidentially.

The problem with this blanket over-sharing approach is that its been invented by the same people that are called upon to cull the workforce when times are tough.

Yes but isn't the commom demoninator here that there is a caring boss. Not all bosses are like that. Certainly most at my company aren't.

And my other point is around hiring. If someone is perceived to needing more time off because they're a certain age, isn't that likely to lead to more discrimination?

@Franpie

As women, we should be striving for 50/50 balance at the top of all industries. How will we get there if the young women in the workplace today are being taught to talk less about their vulnerabilities?

Do you think men have achieved success at work by talking about their vulnerabilities? Thats not how life works.

No funnily enough they didn't.😁

You might be surprised! My former employer (NHS) did have a mobile truck arrive earlier this year for women to have cervical smears taken.

At worst you are providing an excuse tor these limitations to be weaponised.

THIS

Well I think that is a bit more understandable in the NHS. Its not happening in banks or tech companies, trust me.

And there are no men attending erectile dysfunction in middle age talks.

I do see what you are saying… but honestly, if another woman at work were to tell you she is in perimenopause would you genuinely immediately think she’s therefore not having any sex/got vaginal dryness? Or would you ask her if there’s anything you can do to help at work and not think beyond that?

To me, that’s the point of these policies. We all know that lack of libido isn’t affecting their work, so why would we think about it? And if I’m perfectly honest, unless I was gagging for Derek in Accounts to bend me over the photocopier and have his wicked way with me, I actually don’t give a shit if he thinks I have no libido anyway! Let’s face it, women already become invisible to men after a certain age and they don’t see us as sexual beings.

I do wonder though if being so open about the symptoms might help Nigel from Sales wife though when he suddenly realises that the reason she doesn’t want sex is because of her peri symptoms and maybe then he’ll be more understanding towards her? The other option is to ask your company to only discuss symptoms that will potentially have an impact on work in sessions open to all, and to leave discussing all symptoms to women only sessions that are information sharing exercises to ensure they know what is and isn’t normal, and what help is available.

To be clear, when I say the less we talk about our vulnerabilities, the better - I fully realise how depressing this sounds. However you just never know how that lands with some people. My point also went beyond the menopause to include other medical conditions. For me, it's not about working like a man. It's about being able to project the stamina that is required to fulfil certain roles or lead certain projects. Some managers can be understanding and accommodating because they value your skills enough and believe things can be successfully managed around whatever condition is affecting you, but there are also many weak and insecure managers who won't know how to cope with a potential added layer of complexity. The human element won't really factor into it. Sorry if that sounds cold but that's what I've observed over a 20 year career. As an employee, or in my case, independent business, it's about managing expectations (how much support you need personally, how much you can deliver and how to communicate so that management and clients get an objective picture). I'm not sure that generic talks about the potential debilitating effects of menopause do any woman any good because we're all different.

Fuck what the men do. We shouldn’t be trying to play their game. We can’t, we’re women. And it hasn’t worked when we have tried. That’s the point. When women try to juggle being a full time mother, a full time house-keeper, a full time employee, a full time carer for their elderly parents, all at the same time whilst pretending that they are happy and fulfilled, it never works. They hit burn out, menopause comes along, tips them over the age and they leave the workplace, if by some miracle they are still in it!

What we need to be doing is recognising that men and women are not the same. That we have different pressures and different stages of life. Men earn the most in their careers in their 40’s and 50’s. That’s when they hit their peak. Why is that not the same for women? It should be. We need to start levelling the playing field.

And we do that by helping women in that age bracket right now stay in their careers. We also do that by teaching women in their 20’s and 30’s the importance of this so that when they are at the top of their careers they can effect change, if it is needed, in their organisations.

As a nation, we have done a lot of work at keeping women in their 20’s and 30’s in their careers through hugely improved maternity policies and legislation. Back when maternity legislation was improving, there were also fears back then that it would mean women were not hired if they were going to be allowed to take 12 months mat leave.

We now need to focus on what we can do to keep women in their careers during their 40’s to 60’s.

It has been proven in countless studies that the more balanced the board and workforce in terms of sex, the better the company performs. We need women at the top.

In our workplace recently we had a lady into talk to us recently about the menopause. She is apparently Ireland's only or first "menopause coach. She has written a book about the menopause but has no medical background. We heard all about the anxiety and vaginal dryness, which was great to hear.
I and others felt a little uneasy at what she was saying however she did make sure to tell us to contact a qualified medical person for further queries.
We did submit feedback to that effect to our employer. However it was definitely a box ticking exercise for them to show a caring workplace.

Yes but pregancy and maternity rights are already a protected characteristic. Menopause isn't. Come back to me when it is and then people will have a leg to stand on when they get managed out in their late fifties/early sixties despite bringing a wealth of talent and experience to the table and still being perfectly able to do their jobs.

This!!! It’s the assumption that the default humans ( men) are not affected by their hormones in middle age and beyond! Let’s hear about their anxieties over losing their hair and erections in mixed company, shall we?

Yes, and how about the elevated risk of prostate cancer? Affects many men in their 50s and 60s.

yes, what's the difference between all that that affects middle aged men and menopause. Nothing, thats the answer. Yet we are expected to embrace a blanket approach to airing it all out in the open for the one that can affect women - the ones who traditionally have found it harder to thrive in the workplace. Bad idea, until its a protected characteristic or we bang on about prostates and ED as well.

I'm still pissed off for missing out on a promotion because it was between me and a male colleague just two weeks before my due date. Colleague and I had very similar qualifications but I had a massive baby bump and a six month maternity leave planned. I firmly stated my intention to return to work post mat leave but I don't think they truly believed it, or thought it could be a risk, I'll never really know... I could never prove it of course - and to be absolutely fair, my colleague was good enough to deserve the job- but my gut absolutely tells me that it was a deciding factor. I got the news the day before I gave birth. Three months later I'd found another job and started a better position somewhere else (so no, I didn't return to my old job but not for the reasons management assumed). As an aside, I did not tell my new employers about being a new mum. Lesson learned.

Also, sometimes (as was the case in the missed promotion I've just described) the issue comes from female managers who 'think' they understand it better just because post-partum or menopause or whatever hit them hard, failing to understand that every woman is different. So, I've learned to not overshare with women bosses for that very reason. And I am very careful to not project my own experiences or assumptions onto my younger female staff!

Exactly. Why are we giving employers more ammunition, in even less legislated areas, at a time when its even harder to be taken as seriously as the men of an equivalent age. I also fought for years to get back on track after maternity leaves, after being passed over and being put on the 'mummy track' as one charming former boss told me. The last thing I want now I am actually flying high again in my early 50s is everyone highlighting that I am or am about to go through a terribly disabilitating thing that definitely happens to all women, makes their brains turn to mush and they dry up into old crones overnight, when actually I am at peak operating capacity (like most women that have successfully negotiated babies, children and careers) and have personally suffered nothing worse than a bit of insomnia. I know it can be way worse but I also know there is help from the GP, if you can get it, and that is where we should be focusing campaigning, get GPs to uniformly take women seriously if and when they need support through the menopause.

Exactly. Fuck that!

@Franpie

Fuck what the men do. We shouldn’t be trying to play their game. We can’t, we’re women. And it hasn’t worked when we have tried. That’s the point. When women try to juggle being a full time mother, a full time house-keeper, a full time employee, a full time carer for their elderly parents, all at the same time whilst pretending that they are happy and fulfilled, it never works.

Of course. And I completely support legal protections and cultural reinforcement where necessary to support levelling the playing field. And of course enabling women to get more parity on the domestic front (which is the real frontline in feminism in my view).

But you do that by highlighting strengths, values, resilience and pointing out discrimination when it happens. You don’t achieve it by making a big public and embarrassing show of women’s inherent biological vulnerability.

It makes us look ridiculous and leaves us open to pity, contempt, marginalisation and accusations of special pleading. None of which helps the goal.

And of course enabling women to get more parity on the domestic front (which is the real frontline in feminism in my view).

Yep. The real solution is keeping every single man-child cocklodger out of the gene pool.

I'm so torn on this. It's great that those who do need adjustments/time off because of menopause symptoms are being given it and it's recognised but I do worry it further digs in sexism and ageism assuming that all women of a certain age will need this. I got annoyed as my workplace had several policy/guidance documents about menopause but no policy on miscarriage or fertility treatment in terms of leave entitlement. I know this probably affects less people but it's far more immediate when you have a miscarriage. I had to scrabble around to work out how to take sufficient paid leave when I had a miscarriage (not helped by a useless, borderline neglectful manager).

I know it can be way worse but I also know there is help from the GP, if you can get it, and that is where we should be focusing campaigning, get GPs to uniformly take women seriously if and when they need support through the menopause.

That is what our external advisors support with. They are able to provide advice on how to get your GP to listen to you. How to see your GP armed with a diary of symptoms, medications you want to try, tests you want to receive etc.

If the GP doesn’t help, we can also arrange for you to have a consultation with a private GP specialising in menopause at our expense.

As a company, we are trying to fill the gap whilst the NHS gets up to speed.

But there is a lot of awareness now and change is happening which is good. Another woman on my board was going through menopause 10 years ago and there was virtually no awareness or support anywhere which she found incredibly hard at the time.