To think that menopause talks at work might not be an entirely good thing?

[Wonderbug81]

We had a talk on menopause today at work. An outside speaker. About 10% of attendees were men (mainly younger) plus a mix of women of all ages.

The speaker went into a lot of detail about how debilitating perimenopause can be and the impact on work. She also talked through the support women can get both internally and through other orgs.

I know I should feel positive about all this but I couldn't help feeling that now people will just wonder whether any woman in their late 30s and above in our company (including me) is forgetting something or is 'off sick' because of their hormones.

I also feel a little uncomfortable that now, a lot more of my colleagues might now assume that if I am perimenopausal, I may have vaginal dryness and low libido among whatever else is wrong with me. Whether you have the symptoms or not it feels overly exposing and I have a couple of team members who would potentially exploit it as a vulnerability.

Please prove me wrong and tell me this is a positive move forward??

I think miscarriage/infertility probably affect a similar amount of women as those that are unlucky enough to have very severe menopause symptoms, or who can't take HRT, actually.

See, we're already in the mindset that all middle aged women suffer terrible symptoms that stop them effective at work. Promoted by younger, well-meaning, often female, policy makers who haven't experienced it yet and have been taught to dread it. And some younger males who just enjoy another way to put the boot into those annoying bossy older women at work who remind them of their annoying mothers. But that really isn't the case. I know 2 women out of my entire large circle of 40, 50 and 60 something women, socially and at work, who have expressed any serious medical difficulties during menopause. My mother suffered terribly so I know what it is like. But many dont.

That would have pissed me off no end as I’m usually freezing at work.

It’s the assumption that all women only experience menopause as hot flushes, mood swings and brain fog. We don’t!

Have you experienced menopause yet? My guess is not. You are pathologising something that for most women isn't much an issue that needs any atte tion i the workplace. Great that workplaces provide access to private specialists to take up the NHS slack, if needed, of course, and reasonable accomodations in case of specific difficulty l, but thats where it should end in the workplace. The same as for the male director who gets testicular cancer and is able to access his private medical insurance to address it. You dont send the entire workforce on cancer-awareness training and talks on how to check testicle for lumps and the fact that the treatment might leave you with ED.

I agree OP. I think talk about menopause has gone too far in general. It seems everything is being put down to menopause symptoms now. A friend of mine was talking about her mum the other day, saying she used to fight a lot with her husband when she was in her forties and that it was probably because she was menopausal - well, maybe she was, but maybe she also had very valid reasons for her anger? Reducing everything down to the menopause is so dismissive of our feelings and experiences. Yes, menopausal symptoms are real, but not everything is due to the menopause!
And don't even get me started on the perimenopause, which apparently means all women are a liability from 35 onwards.
Do we ever turn into rational human beings I wonder?

Yes I love how that now been extended down so actually we are only acceptable and desirable and appropriate in the workplace during a very brief period in our twenties. Then its a mass of hormonally driven irrationality and unreliability between PMT, pregnancy, maternity leave and then straight into peri and eventually actual menopause where you can safely be dispatched into forced redundancy or early retirement! Makes me legitimately angry and menopause awareness is not helping!

@Blueskiesnotgrey

See, we're already in the mindset that all middle aged women suffer terrible symptoms that stop them effective at work. Promoted by younger, well-meaning, often female, policy makers who haven't experienced it yet and have been taught to dread it. And some younger males who just enjoy another way to put the boot into those annoying bossy older women at work who remind them of their annoying mothers

This. Exacerbated by the recent trend of making the menopause or “peri”, to give it its cringeworthy nickname, central to your personality, which I see both IRL and on here.

I have friends of a certain age who talk about very little else than their various menopause related ailments. Including endlessly in front of male friends and colleagues. While I massively cheer the fact that this is possible, its not necessarily something that empowers women.

If men dominated social events talking about erectile dysfunction, prostate cancer and haemorrhoids ad nauseam we may, despite our best intentions, start to find it tedious and self pitying. Sometimes there’s a lot to be said for keeping the gory details to yourself and only wheeling this information out where its really impactful.

In my place I suspect the menopause policy and menopause "champions" are lip service, along with a load of other bollocks they have policies for to appear supportive. I'm 53, peri has been absolutely fucking brutal despite being on HRT, but I just get on with it - I'm sure most other women in my organisation do the same.

I think it entirely depends on the company’s culture. We do things like this amongst others and it’s well received particularly by those going through it, but allyship is in our culture and it’s done in a tasteful way. I can understand how randomly doing stuff like that can be perceived differently.

I completely agree. It is totally unhelpful in my view.

Also should you not just be working at work rather than discussing a completely normal part of human aging?

I totally understand thst in a wider scale but that doesn’t help me right now in this moment and I don’t want to be sacrificed at this stage of my life. Call me selfish, if you want.

The issue isn’t that it is being talked about but it is entirely aimed at keeping the menopausal women in the workplace, explaining their behaviour, rather than pushing that menopausal women are just normal people getting by. Gay rights weren’t pushed in that way, they didn’t try to explain their behaviour, they said their behaviour is just slightly different but still normal. It’s the negative spin on menopause that’s the issue. “This is awful”, no one said thst about being gay. No one ever said being gay affects their ability to concentrate or affects their moods.

I am going through peri-menopause actually.

Our service and talks are there for whoever needs them. Details of the talks and the services we offer are on the health and wellbeing section of our intranet. HR will occasionally send out emails to all our employees of our wellness policies and where to find them, particularly if any have been updated.

If women are not interested in them as it doesn’t affect them, they won’t dial into the sessions, I presume.

Nothing is forced, anyone can attend if they choose to. Our last session was a couple of weeks ago and I hear that it had a huge turn out. The Q’s are confidential and the external adviser will pick out a few questions to answer in general if there are some across a common theme.

People who contact the service for individual support and advice do so confidentially. I know the numbers of those receiving individual support but not who they are.

Yes, working at work, off sick if can't work due to a medical issue, irrespective of cause, handled by existing medical and time off policies.

Are the menopause awareness policies really well received though by the people it actually affects? Or are older women more at risk of the chop just smiling and waving and discussing their real feelings about it on threads like this because its career suicide to go against the prevailing gung ho, latest-HR/union-fad-because-they've-run-out-of-things-to-hype-up-and-use -to justify-their-own-jobs?

This thread would indicate possibly not.

I typed something similar but your post makes more sense!

My AuDHD brain has really run with this 😬

Women’s bodies are designed around our reproductive system whether we have children or not. So periods, pregnancy, menopause, post menopause etc. That is something we have to deal with, with varying degrees of pain and inconvenience.

From any employment point of view, it puts us at a massive disadvantage to have these schemes and period leave, menopause leave etc as it just makes us all look incapable and unreliable.

Individuals who are suffering should of course have the support they need but for the vast majority who are able to just get on with it, it does us no favours.

It just underlines how crappily our bodies are designed 😬

I'm of the opinion that not every life experience needs its own PowerPoint presentation.

How about not bringing your whole self to work? And doing the job to the best of your abilities? And chatting to HR/manager if something comes up which gets in the way of doing that?

Our menopause policy come from a desire to retain women at the top of their game in their 50’s and through the lived experiences of those at the top of the organisation having personal experience of menopause or experience of losing valued members of their teams over the years.

We have plenty of other policies that support many other challenges that our workforce may experience. Our menopause policy is just one.

Perfect response! ‘Bringing your whole self to work’ is even more cringey than the management speak of the yuppie era!

Surely it just lets people think that women are ruled by their hormones and can be expected to be a bit useless regardless of their life stage?

Some women can be ruled by their hormones at this stage. And that’s ok as we recognise that it is just a stage and not a reflection of their commitment to the organisation or their ability to do their job.

In exactly the same way that when you are pregnant you may be more tired, more emotional, not enough sleep, hormones all over the place, really struggling. But there is legislation to protect you in those circumstances.

Some people can cope, some can’t and need extra support. But we don’t write off anyone because their body is going through a huge change.

I suffered a bit as soon as I started peri but got straight onto HRT and have been fine since. Some people don’t want to go onto HRT and would rather manage without and would just like a bit of support, advice, and a few minor work adjustments. And I’m proud that we are able to do that for the women in our workforce that want it.

Women are affected by their hormones in various stages of life which are different than men’s. Eg pregnancy and menopause. The only person saying that this means we should be regardless as useless is you.

If employees needed measures such as wheelchair access, or support due to autism, would you regard them as being a bit useless?

Menopause is so much more than periods and loss of fertility / it has significant impact on the brain and many women suffer in silence. Of course some have less issues and some don’t like talking about it, but many women exit the workforce at this time, as a direct result , and im
all for awareness both individually and as society to put measures in place that actually support to en staying in the workplace longer / maybe I’m lucky working for large global
companies ( as do friends who say the same) and cultures are very supportive

I can see that this comes from a good place but have you asked 50+ women if they appreciate the scrutiny or think these policies are the best way to retain them? Your research has gone away if you think 50+ women are leaving the workplace largely be cause of the menopause..

Work adjustments where needed, yes, but support and advice - that isn't what I expect or want from my workplace. Particularly when it helps put me in a disadvantaged perception, in the eyes of many, partciularly younger males. That is what doctors, friends, family and the abundance of independent advice out there is for.

I urge you to just consider if you are really doing the right thing for older women and whether this is actually going to help retain them, or actually make things harder, as my experience would suggest.

but many women exit the workforce at this time, as a direct result…

What nonsense. I’ve never met a single woman who’s given up work because of the menopause, and I’m not at all young.

To make that case that women are disadvantaged and require measures to be put in place to make it possible for them to work (which is bollocks anyway) plays straight into the hands of those who believe that women are less capable than men, and could make them a less attractive hire for many employers.

Where is your evidence that 'menopause has a significant effect on the brain'? It hasn't affected my brain in any noticeable way. Similarly, where is your evidence that the dearth of women in senior leadership is because they ALL leave because the cant cope with working whilst experiencing menopause, and not because, say, they are pushed out by younger colleagues who don't yet have the same caring responsibilities (or let their wives do it all) or are made redundant by older male bosses that perceive them as old and useless? or they simply have had enough after 25 years of listening to non-evidence based HR policies that make their working lives harder.