To think that menopause talks at work might not be an entirely good thing?

[Wonderbug81]

We had a talk on menopause today at work. An outside speaker. About 10% of attendees were men (mainly younger) plus a mix of women of all ages.

The speaker went into a lot of detail about how debilitating perimenopause can be and the impact on work. She also talked through the support women can get both internally and through other orgs.

I know I should feel positive about all this but I couldn't help feeling that now people will just wonder whether any woman in their late 30s and above in our company (including me) is forgetting something or is 'off sick' because of their hormones.

I also feel a little uncomfortable that now, a lot more of my colleagues might now assume that if I am perimenopausal, I may have vaginal dryness and low libido among whatever else is wrong with me. Whether you have the symptoms or not it feels overly exposing and I have a couple of team members who would potentially exploit it as a vulnerability.

Please prove me wrong and tell me this is a positive move forward??

Ugh, I'm 50 and would hate this too.

Corporate box ticking bullshit like "wellbeing days" when the working environment is toxic and stressful.

Instead of menopause awareness, actually see how many women over 40 you employ and how many are in senior positions. Are you making everyone come into the office 5 days a week? Think about how that affects people disproportionately who have children and elderly parents. Are people scared to ask for time off for a hospital appointment to follow up on a mammogram? What are your toilets like if someone had a flood or IBS? Is your workplace entirely set up around senior men who have wives at home doing stuff for them?

Quite. Touch wood I'm having no gynae problems at 50 but I had a whole raft of them in my 30s and early 40s which meant hospital treatment and time off work.

What is different is that it is recognising that it is all related to a biological condition that 50% of our workforce will go through at some point in their working lives in one way or another.

It is recognising that in the first example I gave, the woman who worked for us didn’t have a serious mental health condition that came out of nowhere, she was just struggling for a period of time and that with our support, some short term adjustments and appropriate signposting, she was able to thrive.

In the second example, it didn’t start off as awful, it was a slow burn that started with a couple of heavy, erratic menstrual cycles that developed into constant flooding which left her unable to leave the house. But due to our menopause awareness policies, she was able to talk to her manager and colleagues at the very start without any fear that requesting adjustments would have a negative impact on how she is seen by her department.

ETA: the point is that we are making it very clear that the women who work for us do not have to suffer in silence and just try to keep all the balls in the air at work and at home hoping that no one will notice what they are going through (which is what women are taught to do from a very young age).

Great to raise awareness, but I don't want to talk about vaginal dryness with random 30 year old men at work.

I think I just fundamentally don't get this... What did you actually do differently than if it had been a male employee in his 50s bursting into tears at work? Are you saying if it hadn't been menopause-related you'd have just written her off, assuming that she'd be mad for ever, but that because it was menopause-related it was ok?! And how is the second example any different to any other health condition that could be a bit personal? Are you saying that at your work if someone had a bowel issue they would fear asking for adjustments because it would be seen negatively? At your work, do people have to disclose the exact nature of their issue to get the adjustment in the first place - if they say they have a health issue and need a reasonable accommodation do their managers not just work with that? All of this sounds like you didn't need a menopause policy, you need to look at employee support more generally!

@DeftGoldHedgehog - it was the dry vagina stuff that got me, too. As far as I’m aware, there is no other group where everyone’s attention is expressly directed to what might be happening in their most intimate body parts. It may be well meant but it’s bloody intrusive. It’s fixable anyway - we just needed a decent lube and i’ve heard oestrogen gel works wonders. Probably i’m over-sensitive but to me, there’s also a kind of “washed up sexually” subtext to the dry vagina narrative whereas in fact i love post-menopausal sex - so liberating not to have to bother with contraception.

I've never experienced vaginal dryness. Not everyone does. That's another concern, do the people running these sessions have any clue about the range of experiences and diversity of symptoms and the fact that some people are perfectly fine to self manage any symptoms they might have and that some will be having negligible issues? I know some people suffer with worse symptoms than others but thats a medical issue you speak to your doctor about. I didnt tell my male bosses everyone I had period pains or PMT and on the rare occasion I had to take a sick day because of severe period cramps id tell them I was 'unwell'. Why is menopause now something everyone wants to go into clinical detail about in the workplace? It portrays an image that older women are ill and past it and no longer able to do their jobs properly.

👏👏👏

Yeah fair enough. Me neither !

I really don't want to talk about vaginal dryness in the workplace, and I don't really get why it would have any impact on my work, provided I'm not a sex-worker.

Exactly this.
This didn't need a menopause specific policy it just needed intelligent and sensible management. Like any other debilitating condition

And noone needs "awareness training" that means 30 year old Harry is having to attend a session to learn that 50 year old Linda may struggle with vaginal dryness.

Decent generic workplace training and policies can do all of this.

You are missing the point.

The menopause policy isn’t for the company. We have statutory policies that cover any type of discrimination or sickness in line legislation.

The policy is for the staff. It goes above and beyond what is required in law. In the same way our enhanced maternity, paternity and parental leave policies are.

It is there in order to go above and beyond the protections that are already in place under UK employment legislation.

As we hear time and time again, it is sometimes very difficult for woman to get a perimenopause diagnosis from their GP. They can’t always get a sick note. They often can’t get a letter from their GP that explains they can’t leave the house due to flooding. They definitely can’t get a letter from their GP that explains they are missing deadlines due to brain fog! You can’t compare it to having a medical diagnosis for bowel cancer or clinical depression. It is more nuanced than that.

Which is why we pay for women to receive support that they may not be able to get via the NHS.

The only benefit to the company is that we have a very strong female leadership. We hope that these policies allow women to stay in their high pressured roles through their 40’s, 50’s and 60’s.

Lambs to the slaughter ....

it portrays an image that older women are ill and past it and no longer able to do their jobs properly.

This is my big worry. It facilitates ageism and sexism it doesn't reverse it.

Equality isn't menopause awareness sessions that make everyone assume all 50 plus women are incapable of functioning at work without heaps of accommodations.

It you must do it, maybe have half the session all about how older men struggle to get erections and wake up several times a night to wee or something just for balance

Unfortunately you are right... I wish I could say 'great, stigma gone, brave new equal and kind world ahead'. The reality?... Management (male yes, but not just because I've sadly encountered a lot of internalised misogyny in my time) has just found something else to push us aside from ambitious projects and career opportunities. The truth is, the less we talk about our vulnerabilities, the better. And I am dealing with this right now in a very real way.

I've got a supportive boss too (because she's also going through it) but if I look at the rest of the leadership team at her level, there's no way they would support their own teams.

The truth is, the less we talk about our vulnerabilities, the better

This is exactly my experience of 25y working in a male dominated environment. Where I have seen EVERY woman who hit 58 be unceremoniously managed out or forcibly retired. This maye seem great if you work in a nice, progressive, female dominated environment like the PP - and if you do, great, think yourself lucky - but for the majority of professional women in finance, IT, media etc this is not the case, and you have to trust older women when we tell you that this menopause awareness in the workplace thing won't end well.

The talks I have been to also suggest menopause being terrible is normal and don’t ever say it can be manageable / no symptoms in the lead up or after and for some women a welcome relief from periods!
So whilst I know it is to make it clear women can suffer, it is also not everyone’s experience.

And at least poll the women in your workplace, including the ones that are or have already self managed menopause, and ask them if they want this kind of spotlight shone on them. I definitely, definitely do not.

I totally get where you're coming from and wrote this post to be challenged.

No I don't go around wondering if other people are incontinent, insomniac, insert symptom here because no one is talking about those symptoms in relation other medical conditions. But in this case, the talk specifically mentioned loss of libido (in fact they said the survey suggested 70% of menopausal women had suffered it) so if I start talking about my menopause, some people will probably wonder about these things. There's no need to talk about those kinds of symptoms because they don't impact ability to do work.

Awareness is good on some levels but it also plants the seed that women of a certain age are a potential liability and that could cause issues with hiring.

Meanwhile menopause isn't a protected characterisitic which makes discrimination easier.

I think it’s good because some women really just don’t know, but it absolutely should have been single sex. My mum was always very honest with me and my sister about everything from pregnancy weight, age she had her pregnancies and the differences, periods, menopause but some people don’t have that. Maybe the workplace isn’t the best place, but I think it’s better to have the talk with all the information sign posted.

Tbh if it was during the work day I would guess a lot of the blokes were there to bunk off. I say this as someone who used to attend all sorts of shit to bunk off work for a bit.

YANBU - but, @Wonderbug81, did they also tell the assembled hordes that half of menopausal women experience a massive surge in libido? I'd love to see their little faces as they absorb the news that women at 'that time of life' are not only forgetful, emotional, aching and boiling hot but also desperate for a shag 😂

Oh, and increasingly less likely to give a shit about colleagues' petty gripes and stupid opinions ...

Yep. Hard agree. And I am sick of random women assuming I'm in peri... Had a hospital receptionist be all 'oh blah blah peri, in it together' piss off. You don't know what I am or am not going through!

In theory I agree with you about not surpressing symptoms but in practice... we only have to look at the still ongoing discrimination against women who are pregnant/on mat leave to see that not everyone behaves they way they should.

And isn't the example being discussed both age discrimination and possible menopausal discrimination (or sex discrimination if the assumption is that every woman that age will have issue they can't manage)?

Large global company had an open invite to a talk on menopause from a health advocate and heavily encouraged men to attend so they ‘ understand’ what women in menopause / perimenopause go through.
Within minutes the conversation was taking over my a man asking advice regarding his wife’s dry vagina.
I, and many others immediately left the meeting.
The whole thing was utter cringe and I was not shy in providing my feedback.