AIBU to think primary schools should not audition children for choirs?

[LovelyBranches]

Dd is 9 and loves singing. She goes to her school choir after school group and goes to signing lessons outside of school. She has competed (and won) at the Eisteddfod.

Yesterday she came home from school very upset, unbeknownst to us she had auditioned for a place in her choirs Christmas show which will be on tv. She didn’t get in. There were 3 children in her year that didn’t get in. DD was devastated and very upset about it.

Today she came home upset because the teachers had taken the new choir group to practice and DD had no one in her usual friendship group to eat with. She ended up eating with another girl in her class who hasn’t been very nice to her recently.

I feel really upset for DD, she sings all the time and will tell anyone who listens how she wants to work in the theatre when she is older. I am aware that the school probably had a limited number of places but I feel like they should have given places to all year 6 and year 5 pupils rather than what they did which was allow year 6 and pick selectively between year 5 and 4.

AIBU to think that schools shouldn’t have auditions for choirs at primary school level.

I don't think YABU at all. Your poor daughter.

If they were just picking one or two then yes fair enough, it'd be a shame but you could understand but surely they can squeeze another couple in ffs.

I'm all for building resilience, but I'd probably contact them to find out what they plan on doing about the fact that your daughter is now isolated at lunch times. They've fucked up here and I'd want it fixed too.

Couldn't they just let her practice with them just so she is with her friends and gets to sing, and then on the day they film you could take her out of school and do something lovely with her to cheer her up?

OP, you're copping a bit of a pasting here, but I don't blame you for feeling the way you do. Your poor daughter - this must sting.

I think the situation would be different if say, there were 30 kids in Year 4 who auditioned, and 12 got selected and 18 missed out. But having only 15 kids audition and 3 miss out just feels wrong.

Add that to the fact that this is an important and fun opportunity that's directly related to your daughter's favourite hobby (singing) AND her entire friendship group has been selected to participate, leaving her effectively alone for the majority of her lunchtimes over the next few months. (There is no guarantee the other kids in her class will be willing to include her, especially if they'd rather play football, etc).

I get that there are limited spots, but I think the school could have handled this better. IMO, they erred in automatically picking all of Year 6, because that resulted in less spots for the Years 5s and 4s. The argument that "OP's daughter will get her chance when she's in Year 6" doesn't hold water, because the OP has stated this is strictly a one-off opportunity. I think a fairer approach would have been to pick the choir based on ability and interest of ALL the kids. Because who knows - maybe some of the Year 6 kids wouldn't care about doing this performance, thus freeing up more spots for kids like OP's daughter who would have loved to have been part of it.

That said, what's done is done, and it can't be changed now. But I think it would be reasonable for the OP to politely speak to the school about how DD is feeling. Not in a "I demand that that decision be overturned!" way, but more of a "How can we support DD and the other kids who missed out" way, and also in DD's case "Can we come up with a strategy to ensure she's not left by herself at lunchtimes while all of her friends are rehearsing?"

Yeah that's true it should've been transparent that it was an audition.
I'm so sorry for what happened to your child! That sounds awful. X

Primary schools audition for all sorts of things, Christmas plays, football/netball teams, there was even a quiz team at DS’s primary school. Not all will
ever be picked. Such is life

Yes, obviously we have all tried out for all sorts of things and not got them. What is the point of all these anecdotes.

The question is - if you were a choir teacher, of a kids choir in a very small school where they all know each other, would you bother running an audition to take only 12 of 15 of your choir through? A choir of 9 year olds! Then replace the 3 deselected with kids who never showed interest in being in a choir at all?

Ot would you just decide you are going to take your whole choir through - you know, the ones who have actually shown interest and commitment to singing. As if 3 here or there make any difference!

I realise this is for a televised thing - I've not heard of this competition, admittedly.

The only reason I could possibly think of for deselecting a committed, enthusiastic choir member would be if they had a voice which, although strong, did not blend in for some reason. Eg. some kids may veer towards singing in a very theatrical way, rather than the choral style or whatever it is this teacher is aiming for?

But it doesn't sound like this is the case here, so I would ask the school for feedback.

I was always the fat kid at school. I disliked PE, bottom set for it all but had an aptitude for hockey, so I wanted to join the hockey team. Entry wasn't performance based. PE teacher tried and succeeded put me off it, I believe because she didn't see past me being a fat kid. A few years later I did the D of E challenges (involving various sports and hikes) and I found my own way into sports that I love as a young adult.

Your daughter is clearly still getting encouragement in singing in the choir that she attends outside of school.

I am quite passionate in my belief that the recent generations of young adults entering the workplace have a really worrying lack of emotional resilience and that this must be linked to the way they were parented. I would LOVE to see the parents of the current generation of children helping them to learn the skills to cope with life's disappointments.

It's entirely understandable that at 9 she feels like her whole world has caved in, but objectively it hasn't. I wouldn't expect all 9 year olds to be philosophical about being unsuccessful in an audition, but I would like to echo what others have advised you which is to as a parent help her to develop the resilience to withstand small disappointments. Not getting into choir, even when she's only one of three that didn't, IS a small disappointment in the grand scheme of life. Having to sit with some of the 12 children who aren't practicing choir at lunchtimes feels huge to her but IS a small deal in the grand scheme of life. I don't think all 12 will have been mean to her recently, and maybe the mean girl is also missing many of her friends at lunchtime and may learn an important lesson in not being mean to people who she may one day want the company of.

I'd be allowing and welcoming her emotions without also getting caught up in them myself, and then lead a conversation about how she can make the most of it. She could take a book to lunch, make an effort to be friendly with the other 12 children who she wouldn't normally chat to, or get involved in another lunchtime club, that sort of thing. And I'd make a special effort to set up play dates and fun activities with the friends who are in the choir, so that those friendships don't tail off.

@allchange5 OP has already said she doesn't know how many Year 5 were/weren't chosen. All the year 4 and 5 children auditioned. Say that was 30 children and 20 were chosen. It is unfortunate that 3 of those were specifically year 4.

Can't see anywhere where it is said that children who weren't already in the choir from year 6 were chosen. Only all of the year 6 choir members were.

What is it that you are seeking? Why post at all if you are not interested in other points of view? I'm asking genuinely. You are not seeking other viewpoints. Just go and address it properly with the school. Mumsnet can't solve this issue for you and you are clearly very aggrieved.

I'm a musician, as you can tell from my username. I'm not a singer.

I have read all the OP but not all the thread.

I just wanted to say this, to see if it made a difference. (Mostly a difference to how your daughter feels - but you also sound as if you are hurting, quite reasonably.) It doesn't relate to disability at all - I'm putting that issue firmly to one side. It also doesn't relate to the social effects of your DD not having been chosen, which are actually irrelevant to the selection process.

Sometimes the very best singers are not suitable for choirs. Often the very best choirs are full of people who are not suitable as vocal soloists - my own model is that they have lovely choir voices rather than lovely solo voices. Perhaps your daughter falls into this category?

She s saying that it shouldnt be entertained though.

but thats the reason you have got challenge it because this would be complete discrimanation. I really hope it s ability and not discrimantion 🙏🏻

*IF thats the reason it should read

But if you're going to select, you just tell the children that everyone in Year 6 will be doing the rehearsals as they're the oldest and most experienced. Then, depending on the maximum numbers you can take, you either take all of Year 5 and a small handful from Year 4 - making it clear that the ones in Year 4 not selected this year, will get their turn next year. Or you take them all and top up with any non choir members who express an interest. To me, this is just common sense.

As I said, the only reason for not taking a child through is if they were totally tone deaf or sang very loudly in a way that would affect everyone else's chances in this Eiseddford thing (sorry for spelling). But it doesn't sound like the DD is like this.

All of the selected children want to do it. There's children in all of the year groups that have opted out through lack of interest. Year 6 weren't made to audition but Year 5 and Year 4 were which makes me think that the TV show is largely interested in older children for whatever reason.

I also agree with @weirdoboelady that some children / people have particularly strong or fantastically distinctive singing voices that mark them as natural soloists. However, they are so good that they can take over a choir, or not easily blend in.

@allchange5 but that’s essentially exactly what they’ve done except that it sounds like they have a cap on numbers.

If they’ve got more kids in the choir than spaces on tv then they need to select them somehow. They’ve chosen to give all year 6s (most experienced, most mature voices, last oppprtunity to participate) and then they’ve auditioned to fill the remaining slots. I do not think that there is anything wrong with this approach.

OP’s DD hasn’t been kicked out of the choir, she just hasn’t been selected for a particular opportunity.

I have to agree with this. Ive been there with my DD and its sad but there will be other opportunities!

OP, have you actually spoken to the school about this? You’re just going to be left seething for months if you don’t and in no position to properly help your dd.

Id go up there calmly and try to get some info as to what’s gone on.

Sometimes they do pick the kids that may not otherwise have an opportunity. It sounds like your DD will have other chances and maybe some kids wont so they go the one up this time

in a small rural primary school, such as many of the ones here in Wales, I have always found that children from different years played happily together on the yard. I worked in one school with just over 50 pupils and we would have one pupil from every year on every dinner table. This meant that the older pupils would support the younger ones and it helped develop conversation skills. It also meant that pupils interacted with each other across the school.

justasmallbiz · Today 06:39
"I’m glad she wasn’t picked simply because you’re an idiot."

You sound lovely - Not

Anyway OP - do they break up for Easter tomorrow? Just ask a teacher at pick up what the process was. You may find your DD's version of what's happened is not quite the full picture. Don't sit on this, fuming, if there is an explanation. You never know unless you ask.

My DS had something similar happen. The poor kid loves to sing and dance but his singing isn't great tbh. Wasn't chosen for a thing as well. I minimised it and told him he can sing for me at home (🫢) and that he has other qualities to him than singing.

@LovelyBranches Your dd probably doesn't sing very well if she wasn't chosen but try to focus and what she does know well ; drawing/playing the flute/swimming whatever. Don't make this bigger than what it is. Everyone can not be good at everything.

I know this is not the point of your thread op but I am surprised at people dismissive of her not having her normal friendship group, comments like there are other children for her to play with... I have a 9 year old son (and admittedly he is autistic so making friends is more complicated for him than the average child...) but he has an established little friendship group at 9 and if those 3 boys were all off school tomorrow he would be on his own at lunch. It's not as easy as saying she can play with other children when 9 year olds do have established friendships.

Anyway.. in your position I would definitely speak with her teacher about how this has affected her and had a knock on effect for her lunchtimes too. I don't know if your daughter got an explanation from the school either but maybe they could give her a reason that would make her feel better. They can't if they don't know how upset she is, and she probably won't voice her level of hurt herself.

It's possible to be good at performing but suck at auditions, which is quite a skill. I'm a good ensemble performer but having to sing a solo in front of an audition panel makes me collapse in to a heap. I often fail to perform stuff I can normally do easily outside of auditions.

If she has singing lessons, would her teacher be able to give her some help with audition technique?

So because your child wasn't chosen everyone shouldn't be able to do it

You are part of the reason that teachers are leaving. We are so fed up of stuff like this, we cant do right for doing wrong .