Resident doctors synicsl strike again

[uneffingbelievable]

The resident doctors have once again announced a 6 day strike to co incide with a bank holiday weekend.

Whilst I support fair pay and working conditions I have lost all sympathy with them. This is not poverty when you are being paid as a whole package 40-95000 gross on a 44 hr week depending on your seniority.

The arguments about lack of jobs did not stack up with more jobs going to home graduates than IMGS despite the hysteria and a huge number of home graduates not even bothering to apply.

They are coming across as tone deaf and entitled or am I missing something.

Minnie798 - that i agree with

Well you’ll be glad to hear that a large proportion of these selfish and entitled wasters can’t progress their careers because there are not enough speciality training posts to go round so they’ll be out of medicine pretty soon. Hope that makes you feel better.

I get it. I’ve huge empathy for the rotational location changes and competition for posts that make it very hard to plan a functional life as an early career doctor. However, as an AHP working alongside those stuck on agenda for change pay scales - I think the smarter move would be to campaign on conditions rather than pay. We’d all love restoration.

For comparison, downbanding in the NHS has had a huge impact for AHPs eroding salary, while increasing responsibility. Working privately - would quadruple my wage, half the responsibility, and reduce my working hours significantly. Each year as we face increased service cuts, to already restructured shaved down services, it’s harder to stay wanting to work/lead within the NHs.

Pay is a pull factor, but I’d happily support anything that campaigned about conditions, increasing strain on quality of care and the stress and distress of carrying risks, often without the support needed.

I don’t think people are selfish, I think they are overwhelmed - and undervalued (as are most of those working clinically in the health service).

It's conditions and pay

I know of 2 Doctors who have left UK for NZ.

My DD who works in NHS (not a Dr) says several Doctors have left the UK... she is going back to Australia this autumn.
Final straw for her was the removal of pool cars for AHP's to see rural patients, apparently they must now use their own cars, costing them money or in one case, having to buy another car... thanks Wes

Mileage rates have recently been cut too...anyone noticed petrol falling in price?

Bottom line is, if we want a functioning health service, we need to retain staff & other countries offer better salaries, far less stress and more importantly, better outcomes for patients.

When i listen to Streeting and tbh plenty of other Labour ministers, i could easily be listening to a Tory minister.

The resident doctors have once again announced a 6 day strike to co incide with a bank holiday weekend

It is 7-13 April so directly after the BH weekend .
Not ideal timing but not coinciding

I hope Drs do think they are so special because they are. At 18 years old, these students with outstanding A level grades choose to go into medicine. Not investment banking, insurance or accountancy but medicine. They choose a hard, rewarding but often bruising and thankless career path instead of a monied one.

They undertake six years of fairly brutal studying and hospital training before starting their medical career, with a significant amount of debt. It’s not easy and at every stage the system that should be supporting these individuals often acts against them.

The hours they work are insane, the impact on their personal lives is immense, they miss life events with friends and family because of inflexible work schedules. Unless you know or live with a doctor you honestly can’t have an insight into just how much this profession demands. Frankly, they are certifiably insane to choose this path but thank goodness they do.

Which looks appallingly low when compared with other graduate careers, especially those that don't include distressing situations, lives at risk and shift work.

Half of MN thinks £60/70k+ is barely adequate as a graduate starting salary for law or finance, yet doctors have to work for several years to reach that level of salary.

Why is it always the American system that gets mentioned? There are far better systems out there we could go to. It’s needed. The NHS is not fit for purpose and I’m sick of the cult status surrounding it

@UniquePinkSwan Exactly. We have total inertia and are clinging on to an outdated model devised in the 1940s. It’s poor in many areas and report after report is highlighting this but we delude ourselves that it’s world beating.

@Bjorkdidit The latest research says doctors and dentists get the best return on their degrees. You completely forgot that other degree holders have to compete with vast numbers to get the highest paid roles. Their odds will be 300:1 to get a high paying legal traineeship for example. Plus the roles are not ring fenced to law degree holders. Many degrees are considered, and their holders get the jobs too. Medicine and dentistry are ring fenced but no other high paying career is in the same way (well engineering but not as highly paid and many more doing the degrees!) I’ll dig out the research.

Here it is. Latest HESA data for 22/23. Before the doctors pay rise. The IFS found the same. Best return on any degree.

Rather than paying existing overworked resident doctors more, why don't they make them work less hours and use the extra money to fund more resident doctors placements to cover the hours. They might not end up as minted as they hope, but it would improve their work/ life balance and stop the disgraceful waste of medical talent where doctors can't get placements. Higher wages could then come with later experience as it does with most careers.

@CurlyKoalie The hours are greatly reduced in comparison to decades ago. Don’t forget they now get overtime or time off in lieu. Never see that reported!

What's with this race to the bottom. No need to behave like crabs in a bucket . Drs need and deserve pay and conditions and job security commensurate with their value to society. I knew this would happen as soon as the profession became 50%female. Women are always undervalued and paid less .

Excellent post. 👏

In my profession I know the pension and benefits doctors receive once they've been in their jobs for a while and it is unbelievably generous. No one else comes close. So no Op YANBU. The junior doctors just need to suck it up in the early years of a profession just like everyone else including people who have done years of higher education and training.

But they are not on an hourly rate. They are salaried at £35K which is higher than many graduates get for their first job, particularly outside London.
Any overtime adds to that.
In most graduate careers there is a big jump in salary when you have clocked up some experience.
I think demanding an equivalent of £60K to £ 70k when you have no experience is just unrealistic.

100
Extremely highly skilled

I am very sympathetic to the pipeline issues. I wish that were the focus.

The complaints around pay and working conditions are somewhat contradictory: basic pay is around £38K-73K, but the overnight and weekend shifts command a handsome 37% premium. Overtime is also paid, unlike in many professional jobs. So the greater the work load, the less viable the low pay argument.

Not denying that the system is brutal, but the pay compares well to US resident doctor positions. (Those threats to decamp to America made by a previous union spokesperson were to undesirable service-type jobs, that could not be filled by Americans even for debt forgiveness).

Apprenticeships should not be needlessly difficult and the pipeline should be viable. But no, doctors are not more accomplished than young scientists, including medical researchers, who would give a lot for similar levels of competition, compensation and career progression.

No idea where you are getting your information from but thousands of doctors can’t get jobs as the NHS isn’t recruiting and the ones striking are on £14 an hour.

The hours worked decades ago were inhumane and dangerous.
Everyone else gets time off in lieu.
These are not special bonuses, they are how it should be.

@Dexterrr The self employed don’t. Many higher end professions don’t. Thats a fallacy. Also who else gets the state paying 28% of their pension contribution? Maybe we reduce that and pay a bit more. The self employed, who actually create wealth and employ other people, get £0 from the state towards their pensions. This is why doctors are not the impoverished folk some cksim
they are. Consultants start on £110,000. Plus add in that 28% uplift on pensions. It’s hardly living on a pittance. All that private work too and many GPs work part time to get the days off with dc. What a luxury. Try running a decent sized business, employing 200 people, part time.

Not getting jobs is the pipeline issue that I opened with. Did you read my opening paragraph?

£14.09 was the lowest point on the old junior doctor pay scale in 2023 excluding overtime and top ups for night and overtime work. There have been big pay rises since.

Union members who strike have always been on a range of salaries. The union prefers to focus our attention on the Y1 salary. Current base salaries for union members are indeed what I posted at 10.29. In fact, the highest base salary for Specialist Trainees is over £100K.
Just search on Pay Scales for Resident Doctors.

And remember that virtually all of them get paid overtime plus 37% for weekend and overnight rotas.