Resident doctors synicsl strike again

[uneffingbelievable]

The resident doctors have once again announced a 6 day strike to co incide with a bank holiday weekend.

Whilst I support fair pay and working conditions I have lost all sympathy with them. This is not poverty when you are being paid as a whole package 40-95000 gross on a 44 hr week depending on your seniority.

The arguments about lack of jobs did not stack up with more jobs going to home graduates than IMGS despite the hysteria and a huge number of home graduates not even bothering to apply.

They are coming across as tone deaf and entitled or am I missing something.

I absolutely agree

I work for the nhs in an admin role and the work this causes is immense, changing rotas, then hospital trusts have to pay thru the noses for agency staff to backfill to be safe as agencies all put up prices during strikes.

in addition to this - people who have been waiting ages for appointments, procedures, operations are then cancelled and then when they come back off the strike they’re all offered weekend overtime to do extra clinics and theatre lists and the poor admin staff yet again have to absorb organising this and cramming it into a standard week.

meanwhile the band 2’s that support all our teams are only on a few Pence more than minimum wage

I think the phrase is “read the room”

it’s so selfish for everyone

So how would you turn a tax payer funded system into an insurance based one?

How would businesses and individuals cope with paying existing taxes but having an additional "insurance" on top?

It would be very substantial, as there would be huge set up costs too.

Wouldn't it be better to just fund the NHS properly? with staff, estate and equipment.

In part funded with some additional co payments.

What do similar jobs get paid in other countries (those with well functioning health services) and who pays for it?

Decades ago young doctors didn't graduate with £100,000 of student debt, and had meals and accommodation provided. And proper training on the job, rather than surgical rotation foundation doctors being snowed under with ward jobs and not actually getting inside a theatre for their whole 4 month rotation.

Yes the hours were longer, but coming on for a 13 hour night shift as the only F1 with 63 tasks on the jobs list plus patients becoming unwell etc on top, nurses often being obstructive, senior backup being tied up in theatre and no chance of a break for a drink, food, or a wee all for about £14-15 ph when you're fresh out of uni is not fun.

My D and her fiancé started uni at the same time. She's an F1, he works in finance. Similar A levels etc. He's now on £70k plus private medical, great pension, very generous bonus scheme and works 8-6. She's on about £40k.

And it’s our band 2’s and 3’s getting it in the neck when all these upset people are calling up.
last time in our trust too we also had situations where some of these “striking doctors” didn’t stand out in the cold on a picket line - they are ofcourse registered with these agencies all earning mega money!!!!

absolutely mental

Because he insists on doing a job he can only work at part-time?

What @PoppyFleur describes is very similar to the life of the country’s leading young scientists, including biomedical scientists.

On balance, these are generally more intellectually able, work at least as hard, contribute hugely to the country’s greater good and medium to long term economic success.

They do not have the responsibility for individual human lives. I am fine with the concept that HCPs (not just doctors) should have some level of compensation for this.

However the pipeline problems are similar, but worse. The training is at least as long and much more poorly compensated. The likelihood of a good job at the end is smaller.

People go into science with cautious optimism and a love of research. That’s fine. I just don’t think we need to bang on about how special doctors are. Especially in the context of this strike.

Let’s focus, as a nation, on the pipeline problem however.

Doctors working privately are self employed so with the same caveats you describe

Most doctors working for the NHS will never be consultants as the government would rather there is a two year waiting list to see me rather than hire another one of me.

Doctors pay into their own pension- I pay 12.5% into my pension. Employer pays 23%. I have a friend working in private sector large company who has almost identical situation.

Most private doctors I’ve met do nhs too. Of course fully private they earn shedloads more.

That's comparing apples and pears though - it's unreasonable to expect the public sector to pay wages comparable to private sector, particularly finance. His pension may be 'great' but it will be nothing like as good as hers in the long term given the 28% employer contribution and her potential to become a consultant. And he could lose his job on a whim or a downturn, doctors will always be needed. DH and I are both public sector workers and could both earn significantly more in the private sector doing jobs that require similar skills and qualifications. But we have job security and good pensions.

I agree wholeheartedly with PPs that the conditions need improved (it's awful having to move around for years) but resident doctors have a good payscale - they will progress annually so only the first couple of years will they be below about £50k. Other graduates can take years and years to get to that salary (if ever).

They keep mentioning 'real terms pay cut'. I don't know a single person that HASN'T had a real terms pay cut over the last few years... that's what happens when inflation is high. I had sympathy a few years ago but I think I heard on the radio this morning that they've been offered a 30% increase compared to when they started campaigning? I think they should take it.

Well said 👏

@PoppyFleur You seriously think they would all get investment banking jobs? They are like hens teeth. They simply would not all get these highly paid jobs. Look at the fierce competition. Far more than getting on a medical degree! Far more than getting a resident doctor job which, by and large is a rite of passage! Competition for high paying roles is beyond fierce. Eg top lawyer traineeships 3000 applying for 100 jobs is common. Doctors never have to compete like that. I’m not saying I don’t value doctors although I’ve met some shockers! But bellyaching when the state has given them a huge increase and pays vast amounts towards their gold plated pensions is beginning to really annoy people and it’s gone too far.

There isn't employer 28% contribution though. Why make stuff up?

Most doctors will never be consultants. Why talk about the top type of job most won't achieve.

It's like saying X has the potential to become a top law firm partner, like that means something, when most solicitors will not do this.

The hours they work are insane, the impact on their personal lives is immense, they miss life events with friends and family because of inflexible work schedules. Unless you know or live with a doctor you honestly can’t have an insight into just how much this profession demands.

Sorry - that is so outdated. 44 hrs per week is not excessive and every profession has schedules that cause issues for family events this is not unique. The working hours are not the 100+ of yester year and have not been for a long time.

Better working conditions for all, not just a few.

A 30:1 applicants:jobs is common nowadays in medicine.

Would you like them to all be fully private then?

There are so many hours in the week. They are either benefiting from the NHS pension that they also contribute to- see my correction above- or they are working privately and have the same self employed risks as anyone who is self employed as you details.

They are not benefiting from both systems fully in the same 40 hour full time week.

Was it half of post foundation years doctors had no jobs this year following completion of FY2, or was it more?

The competition for employment is huge, and consultant jobs are not achieved by the majority, so irrelevant to this discussion.

That’s a choice you made, and a bonkers one in my opinion.

With the government's monthly borrowing hitting £14 billion in February, £13 billion of which to service the £3 trillion national debt, where is the money going to come from for our schools, hospitals, and warships, let alone our beleaguered doctors?

Loans started in 1990 and 1998 fees came in. Many medical students prior to that paid their way aswell this is not unique.

Accommodation - has not been free ever if you worked more than a 1:4 and I doubt any of the current generation could do a 1:4 with internal and prospective cover ^ which is a massive improvement

Free meals - never heard of that anywhere ever

There are jobs but not necessarily all training jobs that people want in the area they want.

There is so much myth around what they do a 44 hr week on 95K is not minimum wage, yes involves unsocial hours and needing to co ordinate with colleagues about time off - please where is the hardship

Why don’t they strike on just that and that alone then? They’d get loads of public sympathy. This is what I just cannot understand. Why doom your strike by throwing in a whine about pay, which most people think is really tone deaf. Whose pay has kept up with inflation since the global financial crisis? Not many.

Good postdoctoral jobs are much more competitive than this. Lectureships can be insane.

Although the UK is presently considered a somewhat less desirable destination than it was, so competition is abating slightly.

They do not earn £14 an hour. The starting salary is over £38k, based on a 40 hour week it’s more like £18ph. Year two goes up to £44k. It’s not a massive amount, but that’s in your mid 20’s, the rewards later in their careers are good. After all it’s a vocation, just like many public sector employees, it’s not just about the money. I agree that their working conditions should be better and the whole training system needs reform.

I agree with you, @OhDear111

’Investment banking’ is a typical career goal of highly able students. Few have any idea what it entails, and many fewer will realise it.