Resident doctors synicsl strike again

[uneffingbelievable]

The resident doctors have once again announced a 6 day strike to co incide with a bank holiday weekend.

Whilst I support fair pay and working conditions I have lost all sympathy with them. This is not poverty when you are being paid as a whole package 40-95000 gross on a 44 hr week depending on your seniority.

The arguments about lack of jobs did not stack up with more jobs going to home graduates than IMGS despite the hysteria and a huge number of home graduates not even bothering to apply.

They are coming across as tone deaf and entitled or am I missing something.

@Pineneedlesincarpet plenty of other people have benefits packages that rival even experienced doctors (and those of the experienced doctors you see now are more generous than the ones that the current crop of resident doctors get and those of mid career at present will ever equal those who are currently retired).

My generation, however, didn't pay killer tuition fees. I came out with a modest student loan that I had cleared within 10 years of graduation. The way student loans are currently structured is that the costs just keep ballooning.

25 years post graduation I'm the poor relation in my social circle as a more than full time NHS consultant. My social circle are my university peers. Virtually all the non doctors outearn me - they work in law, finance, food supply, marketing. I have better or equivalent A-levels. I did an additional two years at university. I did two sets of postgraduate exams post qualification (that I paid for out of my income) as I'm a sub-sub specialist.

In my twenties I missed several friends weddings. I went on precisely one hen do and I have worked more than 50% of christmas periods which due to geography means I often don't see my family at all.

I am still working overnight regularly.

Quite honestly I'm fed up and fearful for what future healthcare for me will look like. Lots of my colleagues have started paying for private insurance.

The word “vocation” is often brought up. Vocation is what keeps you dedicated (and the fear of errors etc), but T&Cs and pay need to be in line with the top professional status.

Posted prematurely.

To continue:

I suppose that at one level it is sweet when fond parents think their DC can do anything. At another, this attitude encourages those DC, even good, solid students who could have one type or another of interesting career, to attend university with no idea of what it takes to excel.

That’s fine, because not everyone needs to excel. But if you want a career in investment banking, a training contract, employment in the Big Four, a meaningful PhD, to build a successful independent firm, make scientific discoveries, create art, etc, you do.

I cannot see that any of these things is less demanding than medicine. I’ve said above that I see the point of compensating those who are responsible for human life, but otherwise these careers, including medicine, and others, each have their own varying rewards. There will always be economic trade offs for the security of working in the public sector.

I'm going to admit my bias here having had recently had a very bad experience in the NHS

Whilst I agree that retention is an issue its not the biggest problem that the NHS has, that i would say is lack of organisational skills in both staff and systems causing wasted appointments, time and money.
I had an appointment on Monday it was the 1st appointment of the day, the Dr didn't turn up until 30 mins after my appointment time (with coat, bag and costa) then didn't bother seeing anyone for another 1.5 hours and then couldn't do anything when I saw her (2hours late) because she hadn't ordered my surgical records so come back next month.
If you look at my experience clearly the system is at fault as my records should have been on the computer as my surgery was done by her colleagues in that hospital but it doesn't work that way apparently. Knowing how the system works and having had my rereferral for over a year somebody should have requested them before my appointment. But most importantly the dr should have arrived before her 1st appointment instead of 30 mins late and shouldn't have then taken 1.5 hours to get organised for her 1st patient.
Now there could have been a valid reason for taking so long to get set up (none i can think of as its a simple office type setup) but again it's a system failure to have patients waiting around for 2 hours for a simple consultation due to the Dr not being ready or on time (if a consult runs over or there's an emergency fair enough).
Many of the newer drs seem to feel that they and their time is more important than that or their patients or the tax payers and these strikes and pay demands when they have pension packages that most couldn't dream of is just another symptom of that attitude

Your Dr could have been late due to ward rounds and understaffing what you see in your appointment is the tip of the iceberg. My DS was working in A And E with a long backlog. What people in the waiting room don't see is the urgent cases, CPR, knife attack victims all receiving urgent care . The system is letting down Drs anc underpaying Under resourcing them , and not having progression in place

You always read on here how high people’s salaries are… like 100k upwards. Yet doctors are greedy who earn half that. I’m not saying the strikes are right or wrong.

But as someone who works amongst them.

We are losing so many to countries who will pay them properly. What will happen? Immigrant doctors aren’t comming ( it’s shit don’t blame them!) and many resident/junior ones are leaving…

The problem with medicine is it’s an international job market.

As a nation the UK/NHS doesn’t pay internationally competitive salaries.

It’s all good and well for people to say ‘it’s more than I earn’ or ‘they don’t deserve that’ etc and hold those opinions.

It doesn’t change the rules of supply and demand. We need more drs and they are not coming!

We also don’t train enough drs in UK universities to staff it ourselves. So we have to recruit internationally. But we’re not offering competitive salaries. There the loop continues.

The last couple of decades staff we can recruit from abroad now tend to come from poorer countries ie Pakistan, Nigeria. Lots of these doctors are now choosing not to come to UK and going elsewhere in Europe as they can get paid more in most other western countries.

This is all doctors, resident and consultant.
If you google most types of drs/ grades - they get paid more elsewhere.

ie orthopaedic surgeon. £110-£120k for a consultant in uk. That takes at least 10 years of work as a resident dr to get to, plus 5 years uni, plus costly exams. In Germany, France, Holland, Denmark etc those drs are paid £300k ish (USA £500k+) Just one example.
UK is the ‘poor man’ these days.

25 years ago a consultant would be able to afford decent house/ life style/ holidays and private school for couple kids. In exchange for their skills.

No chance now. So the landscape has changed and people are not attracted to the profession. It’s a tough job. Looks like people are voting with their feet.

European (not US) insurance based model may be the only way to solve it all. Then they will get paid similarly to other Western European countries .

@1ladybird We have increased medical school places by quite a significant number. Last years grads did find it difficult to find specialist placements because it’s cheaper to employ doctors from less well paid countries. It’s not remotely difficult to recruit them whilst our home trained doctors go to English speaking countries. They don’t go to India or even France. There are probably enough doctors being trained but that’s not the end of their training and hospitals find it cheaper not to employ them. The government has recognised this in the pay deal.

Nope its a local outpatient/day surgery hospital with no A&E or morning rounds nor would any of that explain the lack of notes or extra 1.5 hours in her room seeing nobody

About twenty years ago, instead of recruiting for academic ability and everything that goes with it, we took steps in the interests of "Diversity, Equality and Inclusion" to "include" in the medical workforce a "diverse" group of people who were more representative of the general population.

Unfortunately, a large proportion of the general population is unsuited to a career in medicine. So, by the end of medical school now, more than 80% of medical students are less than satisfied with the idea of working for the NHS, and at the end of F2 more than 50% don't apply for specialist training.

Those that stick with it are better paid than any other graduates by degree type, and have greater job security. But there are enough junior doctors who are never going to be satisfied in medicine to fuel the BMA's strikes right up to the point that doctors' strikes are made illegal.

I am in favour of doctors being paid more and certainly in favour of better conditions for all those who work in the NHS.

However, I do wish we had a system where people opted to become doctors at an age older than 17. For two reasons. 1. To ensure they do really want to be doctors and have the right attributes once matured, and 2. To stop them thinking they are the cleverest of the clever because they beat the odds to get into medical school when a whole load of other clever young people didn't even want that option. (Or maybe it's just the parents who think that 😐)

@Marchesman Yes. I do think this is what is happening. I’m beginning to think they need to tackle the union in this situation too. We are being held to ransom and it’s deeply uncaring. I think many are not suited to the role. However as the training is lengthy, what should they do first? Try investment banking perhaps? Or be a hot shot lawyer? These medical students have beaten the odds in their field but it’s way less competitive than other fields!

They have increased under Labour but we still don’t have anywhere near enough places in universities to keep up with the numbers of drs needed over the coming years. Not when you take into account how long it takes each person to be trained to a high enough level to replace retiring senior colleagues. The wastage of people who quit/ emigrate. People balancing families and opting to work 80% or lower. People choosing to do mostly private. People off long term sick.

Regularly there are rota gaps.

The comment about other European wages wasn’t to say UK trained doctors go to practise in other European countries. It was about our weight to attract high quality doctors from other countries to fill our gaps. We are not as attractive anymore with the wages and conditions NHS has to offer. So we don’t attract the best from abroad in a way we maybe used to be more successful at. We are not paying competitive wages in comparison to the rest of the west.

Retiring doctors? Or those electing to work part time to save paying tax on huge pension pots? I agree NHS planning is the pits but I think they say yes to part time working when companies that need to make money would not. Most things are in favour of the doctors, not the public. There should be much better planning.

Yes all of that which highlights what I’m saying- not enough doctors and not a competitive pay/ system. Whatever reason they’ve left. Including the older/ senior ones for whatever their financial reasons may be. They’d stay if it was favourable to do so.

If pay was competitive and conditions more favourable there wouldn’t be a problem with dr strikes and staffing would there.

NHS absolutely needs organising better.

Some hospitals (many that I’m aware of) have resident drs organising the rotas of their peer resident drs in their departments for instance. Why?! Someone should be employed admin/ HR to do this properly.

You can tell when someone who hasn’t a clue on rotas has been left in charge for a 6 month stint..! Just one of many many inefficiencies.

I understood that the exception reporting system was reformed as a way to end the strikes. The new system went live on 4th of Feb and doctors get paid much quicker now. It’s easy overtime for them, reporting for the time they spent beyond the time their shift was meant to finish. It’s mainly foundation years that are reporting, not so much more senior residents. No other nhs staff group can do this.

Resident doctor/interns salaries in the US, Germany, France are significantly less than our residents in the UK - think circa 45000 - 60000 euros /dollars

In switzerland it is 7000 CHF per month but the cost of living is 35% higher!

Which is why our residents when they go overseas for a fellowship take a huge financial hit as they invest in their future and learn.

@1ladybird With part time working being very often agreed, overtime payments, a fantastic career structure, huge pensions with huge input from the state and early retirement, what’s wrong exactly? There are many things there other people would absolutely “die” for. Yet the complaints are never ending. They really do earn a decent amount with a super employment package. I’ve actually met many lovely and happy doctors. I tend to think this is the tail wagging the dog and it’s reasonable for the government to want waiting lists shorter. Some waiting times for life saving operations are a total disgrace. We need to totally rethink the nhs.

The benefits a doctor gets at the end of their career and post retirement are unmatched by most other professions. They are in a career that has job security generally and will not be replaced by AI. If you decide to do medicine you will be well aware of what you will be facing. Its like someone starting at Goldman Sachs and complaining about the hours; you know what you are in for; the financial rewards just come later for a doctor.

My issue is that the country is on its knees and doctors are well paid and their wage and pension are underwritten by the taxpayer unlike in the private sector. Its just because people will die that they have such power over the government to strike. I don't think its fair. I do think care workers should be paid more though.

A lawyer does two years extra after uni if they didnt do a law degree and then two years training before qualification. That they have to pay for. An architect, a vet.. they take longer to qualify than a doctor. Im not saying they are better or worse than a doctor. Im jist saying doctors arent alone in working long hours having had a long time in training

The biggest insult is that newly qualified physician associates start on more money than junior doctors, but with a fraction of the training. I know quite a few residents who quote that as what decided them on striking.

@Pineneedlesincarpet Totally agree. Dd as a barrister did 3 years after her first degree and that was 4 years MFL. DH is a Chartered engineer. For students now, that’s 4 years MEng degree and at least 4 years post degree professional development that’s mandatory if you want to be Chartered. Doctors never ever look at their full
package and seem to think all other professional careers pay more. It’s very uneducated!

It’s a very demanding job that is physically and mentally very draining. The shifts are intense as staffing is threadbare. NHS is always over stretched. Not uncommon for a resident dr to be taking on several roles at once ie operating, but also holding the on call bleep and then meant to help in clinic all at the same time 🙈. Most days are chaotic. Some people are very negative about these hardworking professionals which doesn’t help morale.

If you want more graphic detail think wee so concentrated it’s practically brown/orange by the end of their 14 hour shifts and very little food/ drink throughout that period. Regularly. Not just on the odd busy day!! 30,000 steps not uncommon. Insane amount of interaction throughout the day and decision making. Pulled this way and that. On high alert non stop.

Its all very broken at the moment and is tough for all staff (not just drs).

If it was all working well we’d have happy doctors happy patients wouldn’t we? Clearly isn’t is it as we don’t.

Also the huge pensions and early retirement. You’re referring to people aged 50+. Not the resident drs that are striking. Or even the younger consultants. Check out the nhs career average pension scheme they are all paying into. It’s not what you’re describing. Same across the whole public sector. Retirement 67/ inline with state retirement.

Full time drs hours are often 60 hours a week in my experience so part time 60% or 80% people are still working other people’s ‘full time’ hours of 40 hours at least.

Maybe you’re older and know older generations of drs. I know lots that are all early 40s or under. If they’re part time it’s for young kids. Or occasionally for life balance because they ‘only’ want to do 40 hours a week and not make themselves ill! I personally don’t know any 45 or under dr doing it for the reasons you’re saying.

@OhDear111 oh wow! Your husband did FOUR years postgrad to get his CENg status.

I think you are the uneducated one!

Doctors do 5(or 6) years at uni.
2 years foundation programme.
minimum 3 years (GP) postgrad training but this can be a lot longer - 7 years (anaesthetics), 8 years (surgery).
During this time they change hospital every 3-6 months.

So most hospital doctors have done at least 7 years often 11 before they become a consultant.

They do at least one post grad qualification usually composed of three sets of exams which they pay for themselves along with all study and revision materials. My experience of engineers is that their firms paid for the CEng portfolio costs and provided support.

I have seen friends going through training for other professions I know the costs, time and input required.

That’s not less than our resident drs though?

Then they know they will can £300k (£500k+ USA).