15 Minutes expected before you begin

[ThatPearlkitty]

Inspired by another thread but a separate topic when eg the role is 9 to 5 paid hourly then why do some employers want people eg 15 mins before your actual start time why dont they pay for your time before then, yes i understand most roles is necessary eg coat, get ready for the day etc but then its free labour ?

In my job I run lots of meetings, often with extremely packed agendas. I’m aware that everyone there will need/want the meeting to finish on time and be put out if we run over. Whenever I run a meeting I get to the room early so that I can set up and be ready to greet people as they arrive and then start on time. Always there are a number of people who walk in through the door at the time the meeting is supposed to start (or even later) and then start catching up with colleagues or sorting themselves out. It means we never actually start on time and I then have to squish things in so as to finish at the agreed time. It’s incredibly frustrating.
It’s like people who turn up to the theatre or something just as the play starts. Be in your seats and ready beforehand. The start time is when it starts not when you should stroll in.

That said, I once had a job where the boss dictated a 15minute early arrival and would pull anyone over the coals for being even a minute late (or really 14 minutes early). That was extreme and unfair. It took all of 5 minutes to take your coat off, stash your bag, say good morning and power up your computer. She was generally getting an extra 10 minutes unpaid work from every member of her team. There were 10 of us. That’s an hour and 40 minutes of unpaid work from the team every day.
I’d say that absolutely a job should say that they want staff ready to start at 9am if they want, but dictating when they must arrive before that is unfair. And if it’s something like a nursery or school and they want their staff ready to greet arrivals from a certain time, and have the rooms ready for that, then they should factor that into the hours the pay their staff for.

What you are describing here is False Self-employment, used so the employer can dodge NI contributions, sick pay, holiday pay etc etc. If they were setting your hours and rates of pay, you are not self-employed and HMRC would have been very interested to hear about it. The dentist is very lucky they haven't been pulled up on it as employers can find themselves in very hot (and expensive!) water for this.

OP neatly providing a precise example of why employers would replace all staff with AI if they could.

Employers ARE replacing people with AI.

This creates a larger group of people seeking work for fewer jobs giving employers more power and employees fewer choices.

In this environment exploitation is rife and will grow.

There are laws, but this requires people to be aware of them, report their employers and pay to access redress in employment tribunals.

Well educated wealthy individuals will do this - low paid workers will not.

My boss tried this
I pointed out to the team that coming in 15 mins early everyday worked out as over a week worked for free over a year
And that it was wage theft
Soon stopped the nonsense

I had a call centre job after uni too. The expectation was if you started at 9am that you were logged into the computer, with all the necessary programs loaded up, ready to click and take a call at 9am. If the call log said you didn’t take your first call until 9:01 or 9:02 your manager would pull you up on it. I recall the login process would take 5-10 minutes, plus you weren’t allowed any personal items on the call floor so you had to put all your things away in a locker first. Most people would aim to be at work 20-30 mins before start time so you could go to the loo, make a tea etc then go log on in time.
We also had the same scenario with finishing, if a call came through with one minute to go you had to answer.

If your first patient is at 9, your paid start time should be earlier to allow you to fire up your computer, read their notes or do any other prep required. If they want to pay you from 9, then the first appointment needs to be 9.15 or 9.30 (or however long the prep is reasonably expected to take). Businesses don't expect to operate as charities, but nor are you as their employee a charity providing free labour to inflate their profits further.

being able to start work at 9. , not rushing in the door hanging your coat up making a drink etc. all of which I’ve had to deal with

I would disagree, I think logging in is part of the job, therefore should be on the clock.

I work a role where there is a lot of flexibility about working hours and a lot of autonomy and happily work longer hours: but I’m well paid. For call centre staff on minimum wage? They should be paid for every bloody second

Trust me most hygienists are well aware of that. It’s been discussed for many many years. True self employment can exist but it’s rare.

Unfortunately though the vast majority of dental practices are still like this. Most of the time you get given an employed contract (dictating amount of holiday allowed and how much notice you need to give). I started working in dentistry over 20 years ago and still have many friends working in it. It was like that then. And it still is exactly the same now. Trust me most dental practices know where the line is and how to fly under the radar of HMRC. I worked at over 20 practices over my life and I think 18 of them were as described. If none of the hundreds and thousands have been fined by HMRC in the past 20+ years I doubt they will be now.

Any thing that is required as part of the job - logging in to numerous programmes, turning on kit, setting up stuff etc should be paid time.
Anything that is you-centred BEFORE work starts - taking off coat, chatting to coworkers, toilet, making a cup of tea should be on your own time.

Our handover starts at 7am, which means getting there a few minutes before to get yourself sorted. Surely it’s just common sense.

For me the crazy thing is e.g. work time 8am-5pm with 1 hour of unpaid lunch. I mean, most of people don't go out for 1 hour to have lunch outside, so if you have a sandwich that is 30 min tops, so basically you work 30 min extra everyday for free. That was one thing that struck me when I moved here from abroad, because where I come from you get 15 min food break included in your 8h work day. Work days in UK are incredibly long...

It works both ways, though. Lots of employers must be petty as well if they throw their toys out of the pram when people don't want to work a few minutes for free every day before or after they're paid.

Jobs are meant to be a respectful, bilateral agreement that suit both parties; not a forelock-tugging "Ever so 'umble, sir" amazing privilege that somebody actually allows you to work for them and make them wealthier.

People take time out, go to the pub or round the shops or just read or watch something. I presume you have never had to run errands etc on your lunch?

I don’t personally take a lunch break because I’m reluctant to stop what I am doing as I adore my job but it is something that is useful to a lot of people

I think I may have misread your post - how are working days long here when we get an hour break in 8hr and you get 15 mins food break in 8hr.

Half an hour for the queen/king?! That reminds me of the old calamitous 'I'm Backing Britain' campaign from the 70s - they also implored people to work an extra half hour for free in the abominable song that was sung by Bruce Forsyth.

It may just be a twee phrase, but it's outrageous to suggest that a load of ultra-rich freeloaders naturally deserve ordinary people regularly giving up some of their hard-earned wages ostensibly 'for them'.

Even if it does not take you below the minimum wage, it is unreasonable. Deal with the people who cannot be on time, or take 15 minutes to take off their coat and/or are not ready to work at the start time.

Weak managers who are in the wrong job. A bit like asking everyone to be in an office where wfh can be done most of the time, instead of dealing with those who are idle and lazy.

My DS's boss tried this with him - told him he was continually late for work, and they'd take disciplinary action against him. When he asked to see the computer logs, they showed that he was always logged in by 9am (his start time), and usually a few minutes before. His boss told him he should be arriving 15 minutes before that, so he was ready for the working day. DS said he would usually arrive at 8.55am, and was ready for the working day at his start time of 9am, and the log-ins showed this. He asked where it said in his contract that he was required to do 15 minutes of unpaid work each day and they couldn't, so they dropped it. He hated that place, there was a really bad atmosphere of management trying to micromanage everyone, and picking up on any small perceived fault. Staff turnover was really high, and he left after a year.

For what it's worth, I think if your job requires any kind of set up, including logging in to a system, then this should be done during work time - as long as you are ready to start at the required time. Especially in low paid jobs - perhaps slightly different in higher paid jobs which require more flexibility in hours.

In fairness I don’t think that’s officially what it’s called in regulations just what over time it’s been known as. But It is still half an hour for free so the sentiment is the same.

The other thread the person was doing around 2.5hours per week unpaid. In a month, that is 10 hours which more than an entire day unpaid. Over a year............that is a disgrace.

The only way I would be prepared to do this is if I got a day and a half TOIL per month back.

High paid people in senior posts and a high salary. Yeah suck it up. People in shit low paid jobs who are there entirely to earn a wage in order to live........why in the fuck should they work multiple days per year unpaid?

The other way round , would the job cheerily pay them all those hours if they werent actually working?. No. They wopuld say we only pay you for the hours you work. So bloody pay them for the real hours they work.

Although taking off your coat, getting a drink, having a little chat etc. obviously isn't part of your paid work - unlike turning on a computer, logging in, arranging your schedules for the day etc. - I've worked with some people who were wily and worked around this consciously.

They would get there a few minutes early and log straight in, answer an easy email immediately... but THEN, after 10 minutes had passed, they would wind right down and do all the chatting, lengthy breakfast break, extended toilet visit etc.

I realise that things are open to abuse (from both sides), but is it actually any worthier if you get all of that done and out of the way first thing or wait and do it second thing?

It does not take 15 minutes to take off a coat and turn your computer on...

I have never worked anywhere that had that silly "15 minute rule".

If it takes the employee below min wage then yes it’s unlawful.

Oh, yes - but even the fact that somebody (probably high up) originally thought to unofficially call it that, to the point that it became 'a thing', would stick in my craw!

It doesn't for the vast majority of people, so employers insisting on being 'repaid' 15 minutes for 1 or 2 minutes of settling in faffing is exploitative.

However, it could also go the other way if there are disabled employees who may take significantly longer to be ready for work - just in doing necessary tasks and actions before they're able to start that able-bodied people wouldn't need to give a second's thought to.

Aside from being obviously discriminatory, it's not a good look if you're ordering Jane to get in 20 minutes earlier, because it takes her considerably more time to manoeuvre her wheelchair into place - especially if it's a hot-desking policy and there's a chair from the previous user to have to remove and maybe adjusting the height of the desk - plus her arthritis and sciatica mean that she has to carefully and slowly take her coat off, put her handbag down, sort any necessary medication, arrange her desk, all in a lot of pain... whilst Bill is completely able-bodied and can whip off his coat, sit down promptly and arrange his stuff military-style in a whizz, so he doesn't have to get there until a minute or so before starting work at the same time.