Please help family and rent

[limeandwater]

Lurker of ten years plus, and looking for some anonymous and honest feedback.

Approx 5 years ago sister split from husband. On the surface they lived a very nice life, but long story short her ex had mortgaged everything against his business and they lost the lot and were left with nothing.

My husband and I are fortunate enough to have a number of properties. We let her and her two kids stay in one of our houses and used words to the affect "it's yours rent free for as long as you need it."

She met a man approx two years ago who we like and is good to her and the kids and 3 months ago she asked if he could move in. We said yes - but presumed rent would follow.

To give you some non specific info the man in question earns approx 60k per year and rents out the flat he was living in for £1600pcm which I imagine would more than cover his mortgage. They live a nice life if that matters. Holidays, meals out, etc.

We are in South East and the 3 bed house she lives in would rent at approx £2800 per month. My husband thinks its cheeky that no offer of rent has been made. He doesn't want or expect market value - and in fact would probably only want about half.

I agree with him, it's a bit cheeky, but then think back to our wording 5 years ago.

My husband is a lovely man and never gets angry, but last Sunday we went out for Sunday lunch and we split the bill. I could tell tell he was annoyed and asked him what was wrong - and he stated "he lives rent free in our property, he could have got lunch."

Who is right and what do we do?

We wont be doing either of those things.

Your DCs have already lost £180k of their inheritance when you consider the rent you’ve been missing out on. That could have put them through uni or paid a handsome deposit on their first property.

I’m sorry, your sister is a CF, and you’ve been far too nice. Letting her stay for 6 months while she got sorted would have been a kindly, generous gesture. Staying for 5 years and moving a man in is just taking advantage.

It probably was a bit cheeky, but what's done is done.

Just be careful OP.
I housed my parents and my brother
One gf of my brother's tried to claim part of my property (big country house with cottage and barn conversion) on splitting with my brother.
As he didn't pay rent it didn't fly.

You sound kind and if we love someone we don't want to see them struggling.
Fwiw my adult children particularly my DS have taken over the monitoring of family piss takers. He's a money man and a lot tougher than my softee DH.

they're taking the piss but you should have had the conversation when he moved in. That said, you can have it now, instead.
When yuo said that she and her children could stay as long as they wanted to, I would argue that the situation has substantially changed since she got a new partner with a decent income.
If you ask them to pay market rates, she has clearly benetitted from your generosity for five years, and has nothing to complain about.

Sorry RTFT - sounds like a reasonable result. Phew. I think you should be charging her more but it sounds like an expensive area and it would be mean to effectively force her out - at least not without a few months' notice - so fair enough.You're still doing her a HUGE favour but if it keeps the relationship good then its worth doing.

All's well..

Was her DP there at the coffee meet if not he and your DSis must of already had a discussion about paying you rent seeing as an amount was decided upon so quickly, or is this without his prior knowledge.

@Derbee The part I can’t understand is why her sister is still only working three days a week, given that she was left in such dire straits after her marriage broke up.

It seems that she’s been expecting other people (her sister, her BIL and now her bf) to subsidize her lifestyle. I think I’d be more sympathetic to her situation if she worked full-time.

Asking for such below market rent is still doing her a massive favor.

I suspect (and only suspect) they knew what was coming.

No, he wasn't there.

I can't imagine that I wouldn't have offered you something towards rent in your sister's shoes, even before I moved a new man in (obviously if there was a genuine reason she couldn't work at all, that's different).
And now you're effectively paying her new boyfriend's mortgage, and for her to have a lavish lifestyle?
Unless you're a millionaire, it's awful. Your sister seems to have found a partner who is just as much a CF; you helping out and making sure her children have the basics is fine, being an ATM for a luxury life is not.

Families heay?
My niece was providing care at two days a week. That got reduced to two hours! We found out she'd been claiming nearly £600 per month.
She hadn't turned up for four weeks to our family member but trousered the benefit.
We cancelled it and got someone else in.
We were all disgusted. No wonder she was moaning about being skint.
She won't be getting a free house from me.

Anything can happen, it might or might not work out with this guy. But longer term, she needs to be able to stand on her own two feet otherwise you might end up subsidising her forever.

Which is lovely as she is family and you can afford it. But it can potentially create all sorts of issues down the line.

To be honest subsidizing her has never been the issue for my Husband or I.

The issue was we expected peppercorn rent when her partner moved in.

How did the conversation come up? Did you call her?

So your sister earns around 40k? I’m surprised you’ve let her live there rent free on that kind of salary.

they sound quids in. If you don’t charge rent now, surely they would never leave. All that spare income for themselves, whilst someone is paying off his mortgage! A conversation definitely needs to be had… you shouldn’t be expected to subsidise her 60k earner boyfriend!

The conversation that you need to have is with your sister, not her boyfriend. Her circumstances have presumably now changed by him moving in, so she can afford to pay rent. He may well be giving her money towards his 'keep' or he might even have offered to pay something and she has said no because there is no rent to be paid. Saying 'stay as long as you like rent free' was a recipe for disaster. Could she really not have afforded to pay a penny in the last 5 years. Better to have charged something, even if it was a token amount.

No I text asking to meet and we had coffee.

No she doesn't earn that.

Partner approx 60.
Maintenance from ex circa 12
Sister mid 20's.

She could have claimed universal credit if she was renting your house OP. If she’s working 3 days a week it’s likely she would have qualified. That’s what it’s there for if single parents can’t afford to pay their rent. Location has nothing to do with the claim.

On this basis alone, she’s majorly taken advantage of you.

Possibly.

Of course its ridiculous they are still living rent free. Kick them out.

We have agreed a rent!

I'm not sure that the average person or work coach understands the law in terms of UC housing allowance payments to family who have a business renting property.

OP did a nice thing, that she could afford to do without burdening the tax payer. Circumstances changed and now so has their arrangement. All good, and I don't think anyone comes out of this badly other than maybe the new partner who appears to have wanted to live rent free whilst profiting from his former home.

Personally, I'd give them notice to move out, tell them you now need rental income.

They would know that isn't true.

Plus I don't want to lie to my sister.

I think you did a very kind thing originally OP and I can understand the awkwardness when her situation changed (from both sides). It would have been better if she'd been a bit more proactive in addressing it, I understand why it was awkward from your side.

But you seem to have a great relationship with her and it seems all sorted now so no harm done. You sound like a lovely sister and friend!