To Think that Disability Shouldn't be a Trump Card

[MissAustenMadeAQuilt]

Don't know how to link but the case is easy to find.

Martin Madden worked for the Met Police as a civilian worker.

He made many crude, lewd and sexual remarks to women co-workers and eventually he was sacked for this.

He has gone to a tribunal. As he was diagnosed with ADHD in 2022, the judge found that he was disabled and was not aware that his actions were inappropriate.

He will now be compensated.

This, and the recent Tourettes case where a racial slur was excused because of disability, makes me wonder if ADHD and Tourettes will now be a "Get Out of Jail Free" card and it is PoC and Women who will suffer the consequences.

I do have a skin in the game. I am woman and have a mixed race child.

AIBU?

While I don't currently have a disability, many of my friends and family do, and while some of them have suffered from a racist or sexist person's comments, the disability makes them suffer even if everyone around them is a decent, anti-hate person. The people I'm talking about have physical difficulties, meaning they are in pain, have to attend numerous appointments and go through gruelling examinations/treatments. They can't help this, just as they can't help the fact they can't always work/enjoy swimming/climbing/travelling like most of us can. Sometimes other people get annoyed about it, whether that's trying to ban their assistance dog/complaining about a wheelchair etc. But they can't manage without those things-it's not a choice. None of them have tics, but the point is that if someone can't help their condition, that isn't "playing a trump card".

I agree. A disability is never a "trump card".

I would hope, in time, everyone would be forgiving of ANYTHING said as part of a tic due to Tourette’s.

As a uni student I worked with disabled adults in a respite facility. Many of the patients had coprolalia and I got called all sorts - slut, cunt, whore, ugly bitch. When they found out I was Jewish, I heard every gas-chamber/Nazi/hitler killed your family tic going. It never once occurred to me to be offended. It’s not the same as some random saying it on purpose and I’m amazed people think it is. People talk about impact, but surely anyone understanding of the condition takes that into account when being impacted?!

And of course the overarching ever present thought prevailed: that poor person I’m so pleased it’s not me.

Your child was made uncomfortable and sad by racists, not by a disabled person with tourette’s . Concentrate on the real issue and stop putting up strawman arguments.

OK OP, I'm actually DIAGNOSED with tourettes. Do you know we hate ourselves, more than you hate us when we say something inappropriate? But should we not be allowed in public near people of different races because we have a medical condition? You think using that term to your child was awful, but you are making out I should be hidden away in case I INVOLUNTARILY say something rude? So you hate your child being persecuted because of their colour, but you are happy to persecute me because of a medical condition? Disgusting!!

It sounds like no one told him his comments were inappropriate until he was sacked from this article. It also sounds like the Met did not mount a justified discrimination case because of the impact on other staff. Nor were alternative workplace options considered.

It is not that easy to win a discrimination case at tribunal. There will be far more information in the full judgement than is in media reports.

You're being so obtuse its hard to tell if you're trolling or not.

No word, racial slur or otherwise, is automatically offensive to every member of the targeted group in each and every context. You are obviously aware of tbe relevance of context or you wouldn't be highlighting the fact that Di Caprio is white.

People might well be offended by the slur when used in Django Unchained, but there's a difference between making an active choice to view a peice of media with a central theme of racism, which carries an 18 certificate because, among other things "there is use or racist language, including the 'n' word, as well as depictions racist attitudes and behavior, in keeping with the period in which the forum is set" (per BBFC rating) and being subject to a slur without warning.

BAFTA viewers should have been able to reasonably assume that they would not be exposed to racist language, Django viewers would/should have known it would be featured. Then, of course, there's the issue that the people at which the slur was aimed were, in one instance, real people and in the other, fictional characters.

That doesn't suggest any moral culpability on Davidson's behalf, but whether or not someone feels offended does not necessarily turn on culpability.

Right- so you didn't feel offended in that context, based on your contextual expectations.

Do you think you would feel the same if the same language featured during a light entertainment tv show, broadcast pre-watershed?

No word, racial slur or otherwise, is automatically offensive to every member of the targeted group in each and every context. You are obviously aware of tbe relevance of context or you wouldn't be highlighting the fact that Di Caprio is white.

Inam aware of the relevance / I just can’t see how this is any more acceptable than a disabled man saying it

People might well be offended by the slur when used in Django Unchained, but there's a difference between making an active choice to view a peice of media with a central theme of racism, which carries an 18 certificate because, among other things "there is use or racist language, including the 'n' word, as well as depictions racist attitudes and behavior, in keeping with the period in which the forum is set" (per BBFC rating) and being subject to a slur without warning.

The audience were warned.
Why is a “piece of media” acceptable for a white man to use the word but not a white disabled man. Why do you think DiCaprio has never been called on to apologise the way John Davidson was?

BAFTA viewers should have been able to reasonably assume that they would not be exposed to racist language, Django viewers would/should have known it would be featured. Then, of course, there's the issue that the people at which the slur was aimed were, in one instance, real people and in the other, fictional characters.

It was not a slur and it wasn’t aimed at anyone.
BAFTA audiences WERE warned but even if they didn’t expect it - disabled people with Tourette’s exist in the world. They can’t hide away in case people don’t like the unexpected. However distressing it is for people to hear those with Tourette’s, it’s 1000x harder for those who have it.

Not to mention, DiCaprio/Lane/Nortons characters may be fictional but those men exist and they said the n word on purpose, for money. I’m just trying to figure out why that’s acceptable and not worthy of an apology, but when a disabled man says it when 100% out of his control, it is an “excuse” for racism and he must apologise.

What’s the difference in acceptability is what I’m asking.
Because from where I’m sitting the difference is one group is rich and famous and the other is poor and disabled, and that’s the only difference.

And if people don’t like that Tourette’s means they hear things without warning perhaps they should be the ones to stay at home? I certainly don’t leave the house expecting a pleasant day only hearing things I want to hear. I’d be embarrassed to have such a weak character

And surely if you did hear something you didn’t like, and then realised a person with Tourette’s said it, then you feel differently about what was said?

If it was from the mouth of a person with Tourette’s then no obviously not

But I’ll let you into a secret - having Tourette’s is not the same as not having Tourette’s 🤫

I remember when my friend told me about her DD's tics. I had known her DD since she was small, and she developed Tourette's in her teens. Some tics were outright plain nasty if you hear them.
I as told if she said something nasty about me, it does not mean she was thinking that. She was actually doing her best not to think that.
I never heard her tic about me, but I heard her tic about other people... and also her physical ones that meant at times she would be in a wheelchair just to keep safe.
She is always in A&E for injuring herself due to tics, or on going "tic attacks".

I don't think you should try to be condescending, you're not well-equipped to pull it off.

Let's try it another way - do you think someone with tourettes, who used similar slurs to those you encountered in the respite facility - would be suitable as a host for a live-broadcast and unedited children's tv show? If they routinely (inadvertently) used slurs, do you really think that nobody could reasonably be offended by their broadcast in that context?

To be abundantly clear - in a real world, everyday context, the rights of a person with a disability to go about their lives absolutely trumps the feelings of those who are offended by involuntarily use of slurs.

Even then - people can still find the words offensive, but should endeavor to compartmentalize and show understanding.

In an edited, pre-watershed television show, where even relatively mild swearing is generally prohibited, there should be absolutely no question that you do not broadcast uncensored and highly charged racial slurs.

It honestly sounds like you think that someone with Tourette's should not be allowed out at all.

do you think someone with tourettes, who used similar slurs to those you encountered in the respite facility - would be suitable as a host for a live-broadcast and unedited children's tv show?

why, who’s trying to do that?
Do I think someone with Tourette’s could be a children’s tv presenter? Yes of course! Billie Eillish has Tourette’s. I don’t think it would be suitable for someone with the coprolalia as part of their neurological condition, and frankly I think people with coprolalia would agree with me
the BAFTAs and general public life isn’t a children’s tv show though.

n an edited, pre-watershed television show, where even relatively mild swearing is generally prohibited, there should be absolutely no question that you do not broadcast uncensored and highly charged racial slurs.

It wasn’t a slur. But I agree - which is why I remain puzzled as to why so many people think John Davidson should be punished and/or grovelling, or why this context seems to fall into the “it’s offensive” category when white men PURPOSEFULLY saying that word, to gain money and fame, doesn’t.

Agreed.

Fuck the disabled people, think of the ears of the professionally offended! If we don’t all go round behaving like we presenting on CBeebies then why are we even allowed out?!

You are conflating two different issues - albeit they are often intertwined: offensiveness and acceptability.

Davidson's involuntarily use of a word is absolutely acceptable. I also think DiCaprio's use is acceptable in context. I imagine some people might reasonably disagree re. DiCaprio, but I do not think anyone can reasonably disagree re. Davidson's use. If one is more acceptable than the other, it is plainly and obviously Davidson (the BBC broadcasting it, on the other hand...)

Offense is far more personal, subjective and reactive, and often dependent on a different contextual factors.

The N word IS a slur! Please stop denying it is. READ UP ON AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY!!

It’s not a slur in certain contexts though is it? When white actors use it in their art is it a slur? if not then why not?

And someone with Tourette's uttering it is not being racist or intending it as a slur.
It is a tic... one they can not help.

FFS, the chap at the centre of all of this also told the queen to fuck off. She accepted it, as she knew it was due to his disability.

The way I read it was that it’s not that adhd is being used as a reason, it’s about the disability policy not being followed at all when the process started, it sounds like he found a technicality of them not following correct procedure to get away with it, rather than it being “oh adhd causes that, let him off”

Yes I read it that way too, though I saw through the Mail’s attempts to paint it as something different!

Yes, generally, when white actors use it in art (like in Django Unchained) it is still a slur - but can be deemed acceptable to use in context.