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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To Think that Disability Shouldn't be a Trump Card

247 replies

MissAustenMadeAQuilt · 10/03/2026 10:27

Don't know how to link but the case is easy to find.

Martin Madden worked for the Met Police as a civilian worker.

He made many crude, lewd and sexual remarks to women co-workers and eventually he was sacked for this.

He has gone to a tribunal. As he was diagnosed with ADHD in 2022, the judge found that he was disabled and was not aware that his actions were inappropriate.

He will now be compensated.

This, and the recent Tourettes case where a racial slur was excused because of disability, makes me wonder if ADHD and Tourettes will now be a "Get Out of Jail Free" card and it is PoC and Women who will suffer the consequences.

I do have a skin in the game. I am woman and have a mixed race child.

AIBU?

OP posts:
DaveyCrockPot · 10/03/2026 11:00

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Lomonald · 10/03/2026 11:00

Tourettes and Adhd are not the same condition, and i am genuinely sorry your child had to deal with horrible racist comments. I saw an article where Saturday night live did a horrific sketch about Tourettes and "playing the card" there is no card people with and non disabilities need to be protected the men you are talking about did not trump anything, john Davison and his team discussed him attending the Baftas and he would maybe tic and he did the Bbc chose to broadcast it, and failed to protect him or the people he" shouted out " at.

dizzydizzydizzy · 10/03/2026 11:00

The Tourette’s person has no control over the obscenities that come out of their mouths. Their tics are not a reflection of what they are thinking, so yes Tourette’s should definitely be a get out jail free card in this case, assuming they apologize.

The ADHD case is more tricky. I have ADHD and it is very difficult. I constantly get asked (suspiciously) why I bothered to get diagnosed in my 50s because, I am told, I have managed all the rest of my life without a diagnosis and treatment. The point is, you can only get a diagnosis if you have struggled all your life. Just because those around me haven’t noticed I am struggling, it doesn’t mean I am not. So, among the many problems that ADHD can cause are impulsivity and a poor understanding of social cues (especially of the person also has autism, which is highly likely because there is a big overlap between ADHD and autism). So, I have not read anything about the man you mention but I suspect it is this kind of stuff that has been used in his defence. I am still surprised though. Neurodivergent people are often also very immature for their age - DC2 who has various forms of neurodivergence is 21 but in many respects is like a 15yo, despite my parenting style of encouraging my DCs to take on as much independence and responsibility as young as possible.

So, on the one hand, I am surprised that ADHD can be given so much blame in this case, but on the other hand, I do understand that ADHD is much more disabling than most people realise and I am constantly irritated by people on here claiming that others are only getting diagnosed so they can use it to get away with bad behaviour and get unfair accommodations at work that they don’t need. ADHD is a disability and you only get a diagnosis if you
can show it has always caused very serious problems in many aspects of your life. It is no coincidence that a very large proportion of prisoners, drug and alcohol addicts and anorexics have ADHD.

Erin1975 · 10/03/2026 11:02

In the ususal Daily Fail manner they have totally misrepresented the case.

If you read the judgement he won for two reasons. The company did not consider in the disciplinary hearing two major items of evidence. A letter from his solicitor summarising the case and a letter from his psychotherapist summarising his condition. They also did not take into account that he was disabled (the minutes did not mention ADHD).

So really nothing to do with anything in that article.

ScurryfungeSpuddle · 10/03/2026 11:03

And also...

"I suppose I'm feeling a but raw because last week my mixed race child and a her friend had a group of other children shout racist remarks at them followed by laughing and sarcastically shouting,
"Sorry, we've got Tourettes. We Can't help it."

This was the fault of the BBC for broadcasting it so it became a top news item that those children would've seen and heard.

What your poor child suffered there, its absolutely NOT the fault of any disabled person anywhere.

Hoolieghoul · 10/03/2026 11:04

As is always the case with these things, the position is nuanced.

Regarding Tourette's, involuntary tics are a symptom of the condition. The word "involuntary" is used for its true meaning. The tics can't be controlled. In fact, the more a person tries to control them, the worse they can often be. They are not revelatory of secret inner thoughts or subconscious bias. In fact, they're often expressions of the most horrifying or anxiety-inducing thoughts the person with Tourette's can conceive of in the moment. John Davidson didn't mean what he said - not in a flippant "it was an accident" kind of way, but in the sense that as a real and significant feature of his disability, he can't help what he says or when if tics are occurring.

The BAFTAS should have done significantly more to resolve what happened. Davidson had expressed anxiety about being seated behind microphones, which could have been dealt with in advance. They also could have cut the broadcast instead of airing the slur, and they could have offered a genuine apology and offered to facilitate some form of reconciliation between the parties if they had wanted it. But the solution isn't to say that someone like Davidson shouldn't be allowed to attend an awards ceremony celebrating a film based on his own life, or to condemn him as a racist for something he truly couldn't control.

I felt huge sympathy for Michael B Jordan and Delroy Lindo, because I can't imagine how awful it felt to hear that slur in that context (or any context). That's why the BAFTAs should have offered to aid with a genuine reconciliation after the event, which allowed space for all parties to be heard on what had happened. Whenever the rights and freedoms of different groups, especially groups who have been traditionally marginalised in the relevant context, butt up against each other, the only real way forward is to meet the conflict with empathy for all parties. There is often not a tidy solution, but understanding and a will to connect can go a long way.

The Martin Madden issue is not really comparable imo. I find this decision frustrating because I have ADHD (professionally diagnosed since childhood) and while I fully accept that neurodivergence presents differently in different people, I know right from wrong.

Madden's defence is that because his ADHD impairs his ability to pick up on social cues, he did not realise that his comments were being taken as anything other than jokey banter with women he considered friends. I find this hard to accept. I also struggle with social cues - when I was a child I found it hard to tell when people were making fun of me, and as an adult I struggle with things like oversharing and an outsized fear of social rejection. But I don't struggle to understand that sexualized jokes in the workplace are always inappropriate.

The tribunal found the following:

"The tribunal is asked to consider whether the claimant’s struggle to communicate with colleagues and adhere with social norms, was something arising in consequence of the claimant’s disability. From all the evidence we have seen and heard, we find that it was.

Making the comments, that were the subject of the disciplinary action, was an element of the claimant’s struggle to communicate with colleagues and adhere to social norms. His social boundaries were blurred and he did not observe social cues. He did not appreciate that his actions were inappropriate in the workplace. He did not realise what impact his comments might have on those he treated as his work friends. Once the claimant was explicitly told how the comments were being interpreted, he understood and stopped. In oral evidence he said he stopped talking to them because it was the only way he could control it. We accept this."

Essentially, the question of whether Madden's actions arose as a consequence of his disability was one of evidence. The Tribunal was convinced by the evidence on this point, and found that his comments were the result of his disability.

I think what I struggle with here is the fact that so often, men are allowed to use this excuse for their behaviour towards women. We're told to accept, over and over, that sexual harassment is because men don't know better, or it was just a joke, or they didn't mean to offend. It's hard to separate the enormous privilege men have in being forgiven by society for the harassment of women, from the fact of Madden having a disability which impairs his ability to observe social cues. Did he make these comments because of his ADHD, or because as a man he has been taught from birth that it's ok to sexually harass women, because it's just a joke and women need to get over it? As a woman with ADHD, the latter feels much more likely.

Avantiagain · 10/03/2026 11:07

A female carer getting hurt by my profoundly autistic son whilst he is in distress is not the same as an adult with autism punching his wife or girlfriend.

CautiousLurker2 · 10/03/2026 11:14

ScurryfungeSpuddle · 10/03/2026 10:31

There are two things here.

An adult man whether diagnosed with ADHD or not, cannot possibly have got to adulthood without knowing that making crude, lewd and sexual remarks to women is all kinds of wrong.

Tourette's Syndrome produces involuntary tics, and therefore the person will know their language is wrong but they will often have absolutely no control over it.

On behalf of many ADHD people [myself and family included] - it’s no fucking excuse for lewd and sexualised comments. No idea how they pulled that win off. Even though foot in mouth syndrome is definitely something I have suffered from in the past, you learn very quickly not to repeat the same mistakes over and over.

Labelledelune · 10/03/2026 11:14

MissAustenMadeAQuilt · 10/03/2026 10:27

Don't know how to link but the case is easy to find.

Martin Madden worked for the Met Police as a civilian worker.

He made many crude, lewd and sexual remarks to women co-workers and eventually he was sacked for this.

He has gone to a tribunal. As he was diagnosed with ADHD in 2022, the judge found that he was disabled and was not aware that his actions were inappropriate.

He will now be compensated.

This, and the recent Tourettes case where a racial slur was excused because of disability, makes me wonder if ADHD and Tourettes will now be a "Get Out of Jail Free" card and it is PoC and Women who will suffer the consequences.

I do have a skin in the game. I am woman and have a mixed race child.

AIBU?

It wasn’t a racial slur. I work closely with people wit Tourette’s they love me dearly but it doesn’t stop them calling me and slag and a cun*. Get over it.

x2boys · 10/03/2026 11:15

Avantiagain · 10/03/2026 11:07

A female carer getting hurt by my profoundly autistic son whilst he is in distress is not the same as an adult with autism punching his wife or girlfriend.

Exactly its about capacity to understand their actions .

x2boys · 10/03/2026 11:20

CautiousLurker2 · 10/03/2026 11:14

On behalf of many ADHD people [myself and family included] - it’s no fucking excuse for lewd and sexualised comments. No idea how they pulled that win off. Even though foot in mouth syndrome is definitely something I have suffered from in the past, you learn very quickly not to repeat the same mistakes over and over.

With respect yoy cant speak on the behalf of everyone with ADHD is it impacts everyone differently.

MissAustenMadeAQuilt · 10/03/2026 11:24

ScurryfungeSpuddle · 10/03/2026 11:03

And also...

"I suppose I'm feeling a but raw because last week my mixed race child and a her friend had a group of other children shout racist remarks at them followed by laughing and sarcastically shouting,
"Sorry, we've got Tourettes. We Can't help it."

This was the fault of the BBC for broadcasting it so it became a top news item that those children would've seen and heard.

What your poor child suffered there, its absolutely NOT the fault of any disabled person anywhere.

I agree but mu point is that they thought that saying they had Tourettes excused it!

Now, reading about this guy this morning I wonder how ADHD might be used by men who want to make lewd remarks to women. I cant't help it.

Does ADHD give a man a pass to do this do?

It seems I am being unreasonable and a disability is on the way to being used as a serious defence for insulting others.

I don't agree. I

f some man, ADHD or not, Tourettes or not, calls my mixed race child a n++gg+r or asks me to show him my tits at work, I won't be forgiving.

It seems though that the majority of women will be and maybe that's progress but I am allowed to disagree.

OP posts:
MissAustenMadeAQuilt · 10/03/2026 11:25

Labelledelune · 10/03/2026 11:14

It wasn’t a racial slur. I work closely with people wit Tourette’s they love me dearly but it doesn’t stop them calling me and slag and a cun*. Get over it.

No.

OP posts:
PinkKimono · 10/03/2026 11:27

MissAustenMadeAQuilt · 10/03/2026 10:42

Look it up.

The judge found that once he was explicitly told to stop, Mr Madden did so.

She concluded: “He did not appreciate that his actions were inappropriate in the workplace. He did not realise what impact his comments might have on those he treated as his work friends.”

So if he stopped when he was made aware of the impact, why was he sacked, I wonder?

x2boys · 10/03/2026 11:28

MissAustenMadeAQuilt · 10/03/2026 11:24

I agree but mu point is that they thought that saying they had Tourettes excused it!

Now, reading about this guy this morning I wonder how ADHD might be used by men who want to make lewd remarks to women. I cant't help it.

Does ADHD give a man a pass to do this do?

It seems I am being unreasonable and a disability is on the way to being used as a serious defence for insulting others.

I don't agree. I

f some man, ADHD or not, Tourettes or not, calls my mixed race child a n++gg+r or asks me to show him my tits at work, I won't be forgiving.

It seems though that the majority of women will be and maybe that's progress but I am allowed to disagree.

ADHD like autism is a spectrum condtion and a blanket diagnosis is not an excuse for a person to do and say what they want it might however be a reason for certsin behaviours depending on how that condtion affects them.

5128gap · 10/03/2026 11:30

No PC trumps another. An employer has to balance protections for staff (including the preventative duty to not allow them to be sexually harassed) against any adjustments made for a person's disability.
If its not possible to adjust for a disability without breaching someone's else's rights, the adjustment would not be considered reasonable.
I'm not sure how this case ended up finding against the employer. But it will not be as straightforward as deciding the man's ADHD trumps women's rights not to be harassed. More likely that the employer went straight to sanctions without making any attempts to consider reasonable adjustments.

MmeWorthington · 10/03/2026 11:34

I can't stand the 'playing the XX card' trope.

Discrimination needs challenging, disability and all other forms of inequity need facilitating and made fair - it's not a case of 'playing a card'

John Davidson was not 'excused'. He was vilified. Even though his actual disability was explained.

And what happened absolutely does not excise racism from racists who are also disablist n saying 'oooh sorry we have Tourettes'

Of course women need to be safe from lewd remarks in the workplace - I would need to know more about the details of the case, but who knows - maybe the employers should have /could have given him clear and firm guidance. Maybe the judge is uneducated in disability, or sexual harassment ...

MmeWorthington · 10/03/2026 11:36

I agree but mu point is that they thought that saying they had Tourettes excused it!

They didn't think that. They knew it didn't. They knew that they did not have Tourette's. They were being vile racist twats.

ScurryfungeSpuddle · 10/03/2026 11:38

MissAustenMadeAQuilt · 10/03/2026 11:24

I agree but mu point is that they thought that saying they had Tourettes excused it!

Now, reading about this guy this morning I wonder how ADHD might be used by men who want to make lewd remarks to women. I cant't help it.

Does ADHD give a man a pass to do this do?

It seems I am being unreasonable and a disability is on the way to being used as a serious defence for insulting others.

I don't agree. I

f some man, ADHD or not, Tourettes or not, calls my mixed race child a n++gg+r or asks me to show him my tits at work, I won't be forgiving.

It seems though that the majority of women will be and maybe that's progress but I am allowed to disagree.

I agree but mu point is that they thought that saying they had Tourettes excused it!

They were taking the piss because they were bullying, racist children.

You don't honestly think they were informing your child that they have written Tourette's Syndrome diagnoses from their doctors, do you?

No, of course you don't so again, this has nothing to do with any disabled person.

Eskarina1 · 10/03/2026 11:39

I think we need to be more comfortable having conversations about how and whether someone's disability could be accommodated with an honest assessment of its impact on others.

With the Baftas, obviously it's unacceptable to ask black men to be subjected to racial abuse but John Davidsons disability could have been accommodated. He was told it would be - all it would take would have been ensuring his voice didn't carry 40 rows to the stage, by not placing a microphone near him.

With someone not being able to understand what is sexually inappropriate the same applies- we cannot expect women to deal with sexually inappropriate comments at work or from public employees. So, it's what adjustments could be made to help him understand. Are these reasonable? If not, it's like someone with missing fingers wanting to be an ophthalmology surgeon. They might be fantastic in all other respects but they cannot be safely accommodated (I worked with someone redeployed following an injury).

Also, op, if those children were lying I hope the book was thrown at them. That's cruel to both groups

1dayatatime · 10/03/2026 11:48

@MissAustenMadeAQuilt

Perhaps the attached explanation of the Victim Pyramid will help explain why a disabled person ranks above a straight white female as a victim and is therefore seemingly able to get away with misogynistic comments excused by their disability:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/kmSWb-7xXKE?si=GiwN7DLRDSVAW44X

CautiousLurker2 · 10/03/2026 11:49

x2boys · 10/03/2026 11:20

With respect yoy cant speak on the behalf of everyone with ADHD is it impacts everyone differently.

I said MANY not ALL. And, with respect, I was speaking on behalf of 9 diagnosed family members. My opinion is valid, as is their experience - individual as it is.

5128gap · 10/03/2026 11:49

The claimant appears to have won because gross misconduct was considered an inappropriate reason for dismissal, given his behaviour resulted from a disability (thats not saying dismissal for other reasons would have been unfair); because the case had been procedurally mishandled by the disciplinary panel; no weight had been given to the behavioural changes of the C once medicated and advised of the impropriety; and the women impacted had been misrepresented, as only one of three felt uncomfortable.
ET cases are regularly won and lost on these type of points. It's never as simple as a panel sitting there and making an arbitrary decision as to whether one PC trumps another. They almost always give the greatest weight to whether employers have followed procedures correctly rather than reducing things to the simplistic level implied here.

Tulipsriver · 10/03/2026 11:49

MissAustenMadeAQuilt · 10/03/2026 10:41

Why?

The disabilities are the reason that their behaviour has been excused.

I suppose I'm feeling a but raw because last week my mixed race child and a her friend had a group of other children shout racist remarks at them followed by laughing and sarcastically shouting,

"Sorry, we've got Tourettes. We Can't help it."

It was dealt with well by the school but it still happened and I imagine it will happen again.

And now this man has had a judge agreeing with him that his ADHD means he is not to blame.

For those who doubt it happened a simple Google search of the terms " Martin Madden" + "The Met" + "ADHD" + "Lewd"

You will see that it his ADHD was accepted as an excuse.

Why are you shoehorning Tourette's into this?

I'm really sorry that happened to your child and their friends. It doesn't change the fact that people with genuine Tourette's can't help their ticks and shouldn't be held accountable for them. This is true regardless of how hurtful others may find their words, and regardless of whether others use their disability as a 'joke' by claiming to share it whilst saying terrible things.

Why are you not complaining about the racist and ableist dickheads who pretended to have a Tourette's whilst shouting racist slurs? Or the BBC who chose to broadcast incredibly hurtful language instead of bleeping it out?

Pitting protected characteristics against each other doesn't help anyone. It's not a race to the bottom.

ThatBlackCat · 10/03/2026 12:07

Labelledelune · 10/03/2026 11:14

It wasn’t a racial slur. I work closely with people wit Tourette’s they love me dearly but it doesn’t stop them calling me and slag and a cun*. Get over it.

It most definitely is a racial slur. The intent may be different, but it still a racial slur.