To let my daughter have a seat?

[NeedingAGoodNap]

I was on a tram in Melbourne recently with my 5 year old dd. We both managed to grab seats but the tram soon got busy and some people were standing.

A man, who appeared to be mid 20s, got annoyed that my daughter had a seat when adults were having to stand and was very vocal about this. He felt she should give him her seat!

I absolutely refused, we were on a low floor tram which can be very rocky and often stop very suddenly. My daughter is too short to reach any of the handles and would absolutely go flying if the tram hit the breaks. I also don’t feel like she needs to give her seat to a young adult just because she is a child.

Was I unreasonable to refuse to give him her seat?

I get it - but if the bus or tram is so busy people are standing, I’d take the discomfort of having my kid on my lap. I still don’t agree it’s “painful” to have a 5 year old sitting on your lap unless there is a medical condition I’m unaware of.

I think the man was being a dick too btw.

I don't know why a child should give up a seat to a healthy adult. On the contrary, if there were small child standing, I'd be inclined to let them sit down. Standing in a moving vehicle is a lot less perilous for me than it is for a small child.

Its the parent who is entitled. Perfectly reasonable for a child to occupy a seat for safety reasons. Not so reasonable to expect other adults to have to stand to facilitate it while you sit yourself. If your child needs a seat on crowded transport, you stand and give them yours. That's just basic courtesy.

same kind of behaviour than any teen/ young adult/ adult that expect a 5 year old to give up their seat for them you mean?

Your child will grow up rude and entitled unless you teach her some manners. Put her on your knee and start parenting a bit better.

it really isn't 😂

you don't give up your seat to someone who arrives later or board at a later stop, where have you ever seen that happening? it's a first come first serve basis in all public transport. And the child is more entitled as a seat as you are, and they were there first anyway

Yeah i agree with you there, but that is not the same issue as the one on this thread, where we want to chuck a little 5 year old out of their seat for the space of an able-bodied adult.

Lol

Must admit I've never seen anyone fly or fall all over the place on buses 😄and I use buses several times a day for work. suddenly growing wings and flying that's interesting and falling all over the place at the front of the bus then the middle and at the back is just plain and I'm being stupid I know but they are such silly expressions to use.🙄

I wonder what the Venn diagram looks like between people who insist five year olds must jump up to allow healthy 20 year olds to sit down on a bus, and people who scream neglect at parents who have those same five year olds in a front facing car seat.

I don't know where you've been, but I see people losing their balance all the time I am in public transport and bumping into others all the time - stairs in buses being the worst.
Adults can grab onto something, kids can't.

If it was so smooth, no one would need a seat over anyone else.

Twats with a backpack they insist on wearing on their back are also a nuisance, and at the right heigh to hurt someone smaller - ie a child.

Why is it her that is obtuse? I’m so sick of adults thinking they are more important than kids.
They were on the Tram first, her daughter is just as entitled to the seat (whether she is “paid for” or not).
The obnoxious young man is the obtuse one, as are any other adults with this stupid idea that children must bow to adults and be treated as lesser humans.

Horrible attitude to have, I’d have told him (and you if you had called me obtuse) to go swivel.

I wouldn't give this much thought OP. It would be different if he said he was less able to stand, or if it was someone elderly / pregnant. I'd be embarrassed if a child got up for me to sit down, in my head its first come, first served, regardless of age.

1980s child taught to stand so adults could sit. Now live in London - kids travel free.

My view on kids standing is that it's possible but not ideal - when I used to travel with little kids (all teens now) I used to shove them between my legs next to vertical pole or let them sit while I stood. Sometimes I would put two of them in one seat with stern instructions not to wind each other up.

In the 10 years since I was doing this I do think people have got more entitled. I had to get quite "middle aged bossy lady" at rush hour a few weeks ago to help a disabled older lady on crutches access one of the priority seats. To be fair all the 20 somethings sitting in them could have had hidden disabilities but none of them were wearing a TfL badge to indicte that to be the case. And in the event it was acutally someone sitting in a non-priority seat that moved. Another middle aged woman.

Last Sunday I witnessed another bout of entitlement. A family got on - two parents, 4 yo initially in a pushchair. The tube was busy due to district line being shut. The kid then kicked off about sitting in pushchair and I then observed the mother asking an older lady to give up her priority seat so the child could sit down. I was so interested in this that I have subsequently checked all TfL info to see if they mention children and priority seats. They don't.

I then stood from my non priority seat -so the older lady could sit back down - but had to physically block the mother from taking the seat before she could reach it. The mother then got another seat. I remained standing.

Meanwhile another seat became free so the father sat down.

So one family were occupying all the floor space of an unfolded pushchair plus three seats.

Do any of you actually use public transport in the UK? Because it doesn't feel like it.

For those saying put her on your lap.. there is pretty much no space on any trams/buses near where I live to put a child on your lap, and as OP said (and as I would also have assumed anyway) she already had things on her lap that they had with them.

Too many people are getting worked up over a complete non issue.

If you're able bodied, like this man sounded, stand up, you have no more right to a seat than a child or anyone else. If there was someone struggling to stand then yeah, that's different, but there wasn't.

If he was younger than you, OP, he should have been more respectful in how he spoke to you. Younger people should show respect to older people. And also just wonder if he would have spoken the same way, with the same words, in the same tone if you were male- that’s important to consider too. I think you were right, child should have sat, needed the seat more than him.

The ‘younger people should show respect to older people’ bit is rubbish.

When I was in Western Australia over 10 years ago, there was clear signage on the busses there that children were expected to stand so that adults could occupy seats. I was surprised to see this. It may be that this is a cultural expectation in Australia? Have you seen any such signs, @NeedingAGoodNap ?

I would expect children to give up their seat for an elderly / pregnant/ disabled person, before another adult does so.
Other than that, then no.

You're twisting it to make it about adult versus child again. I'm agreeing with you that for safety reasons the child is prioritised for the seat.
The question (for me) isn't whether a child should have a seat or an adult, the child should. The question is, which adult should stand so the child can have a seat, bearing in mind that on this tram the parent would have purchased one seat, the child travelling free. Personally I think it should be the adult who is responsible for the child who stands, not a random member of the public. And yes, I've seen parents offer this on many occasions, when lap sitting isn't an option, as I have myself.

I remember being about 7 and feeling embarrassed when my mum made me sit on her lap on the bus, to give someone else a seat. But that was in the days when people thought of others.

I’d consider it more pandering to the man to let him have a seat when he didn’t get there first tbh. He’s the entitled one here - public transport seating is first come first served, unless there is a medical need for a seat obviously.

I’d actually stand to let a small child sit (unless their parent was sitting), but I don’t think someone would be unreasonable not to. I think it’s absolutely entitled for an able bodied young man to think he has more right to a seat than a child.

I see no reason adults should take precedence over kids when it comes to this issue. Why is an adult more important than a child? I’m way more likely to offer my seat to a young child than I am to an able bodied man in his 20s.

meh no id not have given it up either fuck that - whoever gets the seat first gets the seat

unless someone old or pregnant needs it

i’ve noticed on the London tube over the past few years that little kids are left to take up a seat (which they don’t actually want to stay sitting in) even when carriages are really crowded and lots of commuters are standing.

I’m sure there used to be a default of popping the kid onto your knee in these situations, thus offering up the seat.