To be absolutely fed up with a 'friend' in our group

[FierceForester90]

This is long sorry, but needed for context.

I am friends with a group of wonderful ladies who have all known each other for 6 years now, We met through a shared love of hiking and try to go every couple of weekends and also have a couple of overnight trips through the year.

We have a Whatsapp group to plan stuff - a couple of years ago one of our friends brought her friend 'Susan' to a hike and invited her to the Whatsapp. Since then the original lady has stepped back from joining us, but Susan has remained with us.

She is unfortunately quite a rude and difficult lady. She can drive, but doesn't - a group of us car share but she never offers and assumes she can have a lift without asking.

In the earlier days she came on a weekend away, she borrowed kit from others that she has still not returned, did not drive or offer any fuel money, and insisted that two separate people in the group called her before the trip to go through the weekends plan in great detail (I was over an house on the phone). She talks non stop and often speaks over other people.

In more recent times she has asked one of the group for a lift to a hike, when the person she asked wasn't well enough to do it herself, suggesting that she 'stayed warm in the car' while she went out with others. Last week an outing was arranged an her response was 'I'll tag along with XXX" no please, no thank you, no 'do you mind?'

She demands photos are taken of her but never offers to return the favour. She has in the past messaged people away from the main group saying how disappointed she is if she sees anyone has been out without her.

Susan is currently injured, and yesterday a message went into the group chat about going out tomorrow. Her response was 'I'll come but I need a lift and help to get up and down things'. No please, no thank you, no w'would anyone be OK o help me'.

We are at a point where some people just won't post plans in the chat anymore because of her behaviour and lack of manners. I'd love to just remove her from the group but it feels mean.

AIBU to feel that her behaviour is awful and just be totally fed up with it?

Oh how did you put it to her in the end and did she reply? Well done

She sounds autistic spectrum to me. I'm not saying you should include her but if you look at her behaviour through the lens of a social communications disability rather than rudeness, you could maybe see why she is like this.

To me she sounds exactly like every other grifter I've ever encountered. And they react badly when challenged and still try to keep grifting. I think all the autism comments are an insult to people with autism.

Please for the love of god start a new group and permanently mute the original group.. She will slowly disappear.. You may all have to block her as well, good luck

Has she replied? I’m so invested!

I never understand this type of post! Why doesn’t anyone say something… like NO?!?! Why don’t the relevant people ask for their equipment back? Why doesn’t someone put in the group chat that it must surely be Susan’s turn to drive! Or put can those who are car sharing contribute towards petrol & car wear n tear? Or just start another whole new group!

I agree

rule 4 ) manners are free, remember to use please and thank you when asking for favours or receiving favours

aa for the latest message

Susan you need to sit this hike out, you can’t expect others to carry your injuries

id also start another group at the same time and let it appear this group has been abandoned or disbanded

Sometimes there is no 'kind' way to deal with difficult people. And particularly when someone has been dumped on you and won't take obvious hints, it's not your responsibility to tie yourself in knots trying to find a 'kind' solution. Gradually disbanding the current group and forming a new (secret) group seems to be the only way. Is it perfect? No, but I'm not convinced that forcing someone into an awkward conversation about their personal shortcomings and how they don't fit into a group is particularly kind or 'adult', either.

Of course, if anyone posts about the new group on social media, there's always the risk that she'll see that and try to reinsert herself into the situation. You'll all need to be prepared for that and how to deal with it, unless everyone is committed to keeping it quiet online.

This is also my experience especially with those who are diagnosed as adults/later in life - spent years trying to figure out social clues so end up over compensating.

Susan just sounds like a totally rude and grasping Cheeky Fucker.

Thats not how groups work.

This group is clearly a collaborative group - people contribute what they can, not what they must, help each other without waiting to be asked and put the comfort of the group before their own convenience. It’s a social group of adults. There is no authority to prevent the nature of the group being exploited by a Susan, who comes in with a ‘take what you can, give nothing back’ attitude. It relies on everyone buying into that ethos. The group and group members are depleted by Susan, who benefits unfairly and doesn’t reciprocate.

Susan has behaved objectively badly, in many ways, over a long time. The group, which benefits lots of women, is being depleted by Susan. It’s unfair. Susan is unable to see this and modify her behaviour, or is able to see it, but doesn’t care that the benefits and resources she is keeping for herself are at the real expense of others, or even thinks she deserves them more. We don’t know which.

We don't know whether Susan is a direct and blunt person who needs to be asked to contribute. Or whether the group is made up of very timid people who can’t handle directness. Or a bit of both. Or really, neither. But we do know that it isn’t the right group for Susan.

The group is obviously made of like minded women and they can see Susan isn’t a good fit, even if she is a good person. That’s ok. They are putting their group first and moving to prevent Susan exploiting and depleting their group anymore. That’s a groups role - to benefit its members. It IS Susan’s responsibility as an adult to be aware of and manage her own behaviour in keeping with the unspoken standards of the group - which everybody else is managing without instruction - or to find herself another group where people are more self interested or direct and her own selfishness is not so exploitative. But there is a natural lower limit. If her behaviour falls well below social norms, then no group will be a fit for her, because you can’t have a group of people all out to put themselves before others - there’s no one for them to mine and no one contributes resources for the Susans to hoard. Then, It’s her responsibility to accept that she’s too selfish to belong in a group, or to learn to be nicer and contribute her fair share.

It isn’t incumbent those who are kind to be exploited by Susans, or to be forced to donate resource to limiting the damage Susan’s can do or to teach them to be better - they’ve already taken more than is fair from us. We can just…not tolerate Susan’s. If you think it’s other people’s responsibility to manage your behaviour so you can be included regardless of what you contribute, it’s suggests you may have a degree of Susan in you. Not that everyone else is a complete bitch, bullying is rife or inevitable, or that women fundamentally can’t get along. Susan could have behaved better and remained in the group. She chose to be selfish and now she has what she wants - to only be responsible for herself and behave as she likes. Susan’s cannot have it both ways.

(Disclaimer. My mother is a Susan. I am sick to death of it being up to me to limit the damage her selfishness causes to me, while she gets the both the direct benefits of being selfish and the freedom of blaming others for not protecting themselves from her selfishness if don’t like it. It’s not on and pretty soon my mother is also going to find she gets exactly what she wants - to put herself unequivocally first. By herself.)

Are you all a bunch of martyrs? Or worse cowards or masochists.
Why are you putting up with all this nonsense from this awful woman.
Perhaps you enjoy it?

Well I wanna know what she said! Did she accept it or argue back? For reference I'm thinking of doing something similar and interested to see how it went down.

Did you get the gear back yet @FierceForester90? Dying to know if she still had them and if so, what state were they in?

Did you consider neurodivergence before removing her? I know it sounds like a classic mn line but honestly.... sounds like shes possibly autistic, a person too, and more than likely a whole lot lonelier than neurotypical folk

I don’t think gradually ghosting someone because you haven’t got the guts to confront the situation is particularly adult either. How is it kinder to leave someone wondering what they’ve done? All it does is prolong the agony and leaves the person none the wiser.

This isn’t someone who just isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. This is someone who’s taken other people’s property and refused to return it; demanded favours without reciprocating; and bummed off others financially by never paying towards fuel. Someone this insensitive isn’t going to just accept being fazed out. The only way is to remove her completely and explain why. She has never cared about any of their feelings after all.

The group has already bent over backwards for this woman and it’s changed nothing. They don’t have to keep on tiptoeing around just to ‘avoid drama’ and just continue to feel uncomfortable for an even longer period of time. Just put an end to it. I also think the original person who introduced her did this deliberately to offload this woman. It shows how desperate she must have been to get rid of her!

Has she replied to ask why she’s been removed or any reaction?

What could she say about you " this dreadful woman didnt want to give me a lift"?

Good on you. I hope you get the group's gear back, also. This could have gone for another decade, all of you being slowly worn down, all your downtime ruined by her and her demands.

well done OP, what did she say? I think you were generous to give her an explanation and hope you stuck to the less is more principle. She will be feeling very bruised, I’m not sure I could get over something like this. But glad you’ve made a choice on how to move forward and hope it doesn’t come back on you.

don’t argue with her after this, there’s no more to say and no points to be scored. Your group sounds lovely,

This! ⬆️

You're all adults - just tell her! She'll either change or more likely won't & then you just set up a new group & move on.

I've had this experience. We just started another group. People who behave this way, really don't ever see that they are doing anything antisocial and they never will. None of this is your fault, cut her out of the group and go enjoy yourselves. If she bothers to ask why, then let her know how she makes you all feel.

This.