Struggling with response to friend re circumcision

[cultureclash]

A close friend of mine gave birth a week ago and she messaged me yesterday to tell me that her son has just been circumcised with crying faces and that she is an emotional wreck. I was shocked at this as it’s not something we have ever spoke about before so I enquired as to is her son ok and did he have some medical issues and she said no, cultural reasons. I kept the responses short and factual but Aibu that I struggled to show any compassion or empathy for her that she has just paid over £200 to have bits chopped off her precious newborn baby and she is more upset for herself than the pain that she has just put her newborn infant through. I am suprised at how strongly I have reacted to this, I just cannot imagine doing this to my baby. Aibu to feel like this? I obviously would never voice my opinions to her and cause upset but I am struggling with my own emotions around this.

She should have put her big girls pants on and advocated for her child

I would have little sympathy for her. I would make this clear to her and why. She needs to seek reassurance / minimization / sympathy elsewhere

Well that would be the end of the friendship for me. No excuses for child abuse whatsoever.

Unless there’s a medical reason for circumcision we need to stop pretending it’s anything other than child abuse.

There's a difference between cosmetic and medical. You'd never argue against surgery for other health issues. That's why people are specifying non-medical in the comments. You'd agree to removing a damaged infected tooth, you wouldn't want the dentist to pull healthy ones.

I think I’d probably come at it from the point of view of how awful and is she ok, and assume it wasn’t her choice.

Yep, agree.
And animals.

If you are against it, why does it matter which culture? Is it because if one culture did it you’d be fine with it, but not if it was common in a different culture? If true, you know what that would make you, right?

Actually, looking at theories and actual examples of political change, awareness raising and changing attitudes is usually quite a big component - relatively few people tend to be involved at the activist end of social and political change, but they tend to be much more successful if wider public attitudes are aware and supportive.

In an age of data-driven populist politics the effect can be more pronounced as politicians are able to more systematically see conversations that are happening in online spaces than they were even 20 years ago. Online conversations have more power to effect change than a cha at the pub.

The other mistake would be to think that "ranting on Mumsnet" is the only thing that every one of these "powerless people" do.

Sadly, there’s no way our pusillanimous politicians will outlaw it - they’d risk upsetting certain religions and losing their votes.

It's NOT an excess flap of skin, it's part of his body FFS.

apparently there was a queue of parents waiting to have it done 😞somebody profiting from inflicting pain and permanent disfigurement on babies makes me so angry

I think its really dangerous to imply, as many are in this thread, that whole cultures are committing child abuse due to male circumcision. And therefore that parents from those cultures are child abusers.

So, it’s neither cultural or medical??

Well then maybe those cultures need to move with the times and come out in support of banning it.

I thought it was normal as I grew up in US. Automatically done at birth at the time unless requested otherwise . Never saw uncircumcised until moved to Europe . At birth is it painful . Also attended bris in Jewish synagogue where baby cried briefly. I did marry an uncircumcised man and he said it definitely has decreased his sensitivity and makes it harder to orgasm he thinks .

Unless it meets the authorities view of child abuse there is nothing you can do, and your opinion is meaningless. NOBODY’S opinion is ever meaningless, stop trying to undermine in that way 🙄

I agree. That wasn’t what they were doing though. In their minds they were-
helping their DC avoid infections
maintaining their child’s connection to a long heritage
etc.

If you tell her that you’re disgusted and cut her off, she’ll have no support to stand up to her husband over other issues.
I’d support her working out why they did it, whether they’d do it again, whether she can stand up to her husband next time, or if she can educate him better.

This is ridiculous.

If one of my or my husband's family members in another country were likely to cut off part of my child's genitals, the decision to never go to that country would be very easy.

If it were one of the most minor forms of FGM (because the more severe forms are not comparable, they're so much worse), would you be saying the same thing? 'Oh, better to snip off her clitoral hood now, because otherwise it'll be done when she's seven and we visit x country'?

Fine, you can reasonably see it like that. Not the point I was making though.

YANBU. It’s child abuse, and I’d be telling her I thought so.

The only time it should ever be done is for medical reasons.

Why is that dangerous? Cultural relativism is such ivory tower nonsense. If you think something is abusive (eg. amputating part of a child's genitals without medical need) then it shouldn't stop being abusive in your opinion just because they're from a different culture.

This. I would not even entertain the idea of dating someone where they had different views to me with regards to mutilating our child, let alone go and visit their family if it were a risk that they would do something without my consent. We need to stop making out that women from the UK have no choice in this. It’s infantilising and patronising.

When that is being given as the reason, then yes it does matter because it is more acceptable in some cultures than others.

That's not true. There are many types of FGM. Some types (I'm not sure how widespread) can involve 'only' removing the clitoral hood or the labia minora, which would be relatively equivalent to male circumcision.

Would you think it was fine to remove an infant girl's clitoral hood, because it's just an excess flap of skin? Or her labia minora, which could easily be called excess flaps of skin. Would you be fine with that?

I personally don’t agree but I wouldn’t say anything.

Well said