Chat with daughter... Non consensual photo

[BGP]

Chilling with DD 15, tonight. Talking about her BF who is away on holiday. I really like him because he has been the first boy she was chosen who she never felt the need to impress or pose around.

She's always clearly felt very comfortable with him and able to be herself, not all hair and makeup etc.

He's a nice lad, nice family, slightly immature for age (17) and not the brightest but always seemed calm and kind and caring.

She says when he stayed over here (separate rooms) the next morning he went to her room. He fell asleep and then his phone buzzed and she looked. He had taken a photo of her bum while she was asleep, not naked but her PJ's had ridden down. She was upset and angry that he did that when she trusted him.

She's considering breaking up with him.

I don't have an issue with this, and I fully defend her right to privacy and respect, this is not ok.

But a part of me feels sorry for these teen boys. They don't seem to have any proper guidance on how to behave, or on consent. If I had a son I would bloody well make sure he understood, but I watch blokes bigging up the sexualisation of women and girls all the time. It's normalised. How do these young people have a chance at any decent relationships?

What the fuck has happened to all of us? All the social media, lack of real relationships, communication, respect?

I will reiterate I do not condone his behaviour. But I feel sorry for these boys, as a mum of girls. They don't seem to know what to do.

Mums of boys.....what do you think?

What are you on about what happened to boys. The majority if not all teen boys I know wouldn’t have done this.

bigger issue is a 17 year old with a 15 year old and sleeping over. Not in my house.

Actually, it is making an indecent image of a child and if reported would be recorded as a crime, however it would likely be a words of advice outcome.

Honestly @BGP ive just read the full thread and your responses are absolutely mind boggling. Why do you keep minimising what this young man did and trying to make it sound fun and harmless?
why do you keep posting the same crap about protecting him and supervising them.
clearly you were NOT supervising at several stages if he was sleeping elsewhere but at some point crept in and managed to take a photo of her half undressed in her sleep AND he fell asleep in her room.
where was your supervision then?

also ‘playing drums on her bum’ childlike and innocent? Maybe, but those are the types of things I’ve also done and laughed at as part of adult consensual sexual relationships.
it suggests a degree of intimacy.

underage relationships don’t suddenly become innocent childish fun just because you think a 17 year old young adult is ‘immature’ for his age with a lovely mum.

your language ’because she fights gorillas / tigers in her sleep’ is minimising again.
i know that my children often wake up uncovered in the morning or might be uncovered at night.
if an older teen were to go in and take a photo of them like that whilst asleep I would NOT be asking mumsnet how to make it better for this kid.

with my experience working in the criminal justice system I would probably be considering doing a lot more than worrying about whether he is ok and asking for advice from’mums of boys’ about ’how do we protect our boys?’.
what else has he done in the four times he’s stayed over?
what happened when she slept at his?
presumably the mum of a 17 year old is far less likely to monitor him overnight with his girlfriend.
How many other pictures has he taken and where are they?
how many other houses has he stayed over at where the parents have been as lax as you?
I would be very concerned about either escalation of this type of behaviour or whether it is an existing pattern. Google crimes against sleeping women, this incident is a serious thing for some men and Honestly @BGP ive just read the full thread and your responses are absolutely mind boggling. Why do you keep minimising what this young man did and trying to make it sound fun and harmless?
why do you keep posting the same crap about protecting him and supervising them.
clearly you were NOT supervising at several stages if he was sleeping elsewhere but at some point crept in and managed to take a photo of her half undressed in her sleep AND he fell asleep in her room.
where was your supervision then?

also ‘playing drums on her bum’ childlike and innocent? Maybe, but those are the types of things I’ve also done and laughed at as part of adult consensual sexual relationships.
it suggests a degree of intimacy.

underage relationships don’t suddenly become innocent childish fun just because you think a 17 year old young adult is ‘immature’ for his age with a lovely mum.

your language ’because she fights gorillas / tigers in her sleep’ is minimising again.
i know that my children often wake up uncovered in the morning or might be uncovered at night.
if an older teen were to go in and take a photo of them like that whilst asleep I would NOT be asking mumsnet how to make it better for this kid.

with my experience working in the criminal justice system I would probably be considering doing a lot more than worrying about whether he is ok and asking for advice from’mums of boys’ about ’how do we protect our boys?’.

what else has he done in the four times he’s stayed over? How many other pictures has he taken and where are they?
how many other houses has he stayed over at where the parents have been as lax as you?

Videoing and photographing women in states of undress whilst asleep is a huge thing in relationships and outside of relationships.

there are men who have committed crimes against their sleeping wives for decades and the women have been none the wiser.
it could easily escalate or already be part of a much wider existing problem.
you are INCREDIBLY naive.

Your story chops and changes, you’d have been better off abandoning the thread instead of just digging yourself in deeper.
you need lessons in how to keep your children safe , not asking here about how to protect our boys.
stop reading Caitlin Moran male appeasing bullshit and go and teach your girl how to be safe .
apologise to her for misreading this 17 year old and promise her you will try harder in future.

What have I just read?

Your dd is 15? 15!!!

Why on earth has she a 17 year old bf who stays the bloody night, what is wrong with people? Why would he stay the night?

You failed to protect her by allowing this and putting her in a vulnerable situation. He also broke the rule of not sleeping in her room , no matter if he crept in at 6am.

But a part of me feels sorry for these teen boys. They don't seem to have any proper guidance on how to behave, or on consent.
BS absolute bullshit. Of course they know this isn't right at 17 but the bigger issue is that you all her to have a nearly adult BF and let him sleepover.

Mind is truly boggled.

OP seems to be skewing her reponses to fit the narrative.
She starts out 'feeling a bit sorry for boys' later on wants to 'knock the fuck out' and then blaming society for everything.
It gets worse with the idiots trying to be edgy and cool, 'but' it's a joke/ wine fuelled drama' WTAF ? Yeah because these idiots think it's a joke this is why this shit happens to girls and women - because it's only a joke not to most people it isn't. No wonder some boys and men behave the way they do if everything is seem as a joke and girls and women are expected to put up and shut up or else they are called slappers and worse.

You know nothing about the truth of this situation and whether there’s a bigger picture, nor the young man’s intentions.

Under section 1(1)(a) Protection of Children Act 1978, it is a criminal offence for someone:

1. to make, take or permit to be taken or made
2. an indecent photograph or pseudo-photograph
3. of a child

‘To make’ has been widely interpreted and can include:

• opening an attachment to an email containing an image (R v Smith; R v Jayson [2003] 1 Cr App R 13);
• downloading images from the internet and storing or printing them (R v Bowden [2001] QB 88). This means that anyone who received images from another person over the internet whose device then automatically ‘saves’ or ‘downloads’ the images is guilty of making indecent images of children, even if they themselves have not technically made (in the ordinary meaning) the original photograph;
• accessing a pornographic website in which indecent images appear by way of automatic ‘pop-up’ mechanism (R v Harrison [2008] 1 Cr App R 29);
• receiving an image via social media, even if unsolicited and even if part of a group (although if the accused can prove that the image was unsolicited and they did not keep it for an unreasonable time, they would have a defence (R v Collier [2005] 1 Cr App R 9)); and
• live-streaming images of children

The test for whether something is ‘indecent’ is an objective one, that the Court will consider if necessary (R v Neal [2011] EWCA Crim 461), taking into consideration the age of the child. The circumstances in which the photograph came to be taken and the motive of the taker are notrelevant, as it is the photographs of the child which must be indecent, as opposed to the defendant’s conduct (R v Graham-Kerr (1989) 88 Cr App R 302; R v Smethurst [2002] 1 Cr App R 6).
A photograph includes a film (any form of video recording), a copy of a photograph or a film, and an indecent photograph comprised in a film.
Photographs also include:

• the negative as well as the positive version
• data stored by any electronic means which is capable of conversion into a photograph
• a tracing or other image, whether made by electronic or other means (of whatever nature):
• which is not itself a photograph or pseudo-photograph; but
• which is derived from the whole or part of a photograph or pseudo-photograph (or a combination of either or both); and
• data stored by any electronic means which is capable of conversion into the above tracing or image

A pseudo-photograph is an image, made by computer graphics or any other way, which appears to be a photograph. The test is whether the image, if printed, would look like a photograph/pseudo-photograph. If the impression conveyed by a pseudo-photograph is that of a child, the pseudo-photograph shall be treated as showing a child (regardless of whether it is of a child or not). A child is anyone under the age of 18. Notably, whilst the age of consent in the UK is 16 and consensual sexual activity with 16 and 17 year olds can be technically legal, the possession of images of such individuals (even if consensual) is not. Indecent images are categorised as follows:

• Category A: showing serious abuse including penetrative sexual activity
• Category B: involving non-penetrative activity
• Category C: covers other indecent images.

Even if the photograph has since been deleted and cannot be retrieved, if it remains in the device, if it can be proved that the image was downloaded or in some way transferred onto the device, someone can still be guilty of making an indecent image. If the images are “hosted” outside of the jurisdiction, ie they were originally created/produced outside of England and Wales, if they have been downloaded in England and Wales, someone can still be prosecuted in this jurisdiction (R v Perrin [2002] EWCA Crim 747 and R v Waddon [2000] All ER (D) 502). Anyone found guilty of this offence is at a high risk of receiving a custodial sentence, with the maximum sentence being one of 10 years’ imprisonment. Comment The strictness of the law in this area can sometimes have harsh results. See for instance, our blog on the case of Robyn Williams who was convicted in respect of a video she neither requested or watched, despite the prosecution acknowledging that neither she nor the sender had any sexual interest or motivation. Ms Williams was a senior police officer and her her sister had sent her the video in an attempt to report a crime. The Court of Appeal upheld her conviction. The law on indecent images is complicated, and often there is scope for legal argument in respect of what the correct offence is for someone to be charged with. It is also a serious offence that can carry a heavy penalty. Therefore if facing such charges, obtaining legal advice at the earliest opportunity is crucial.

@BGP, you said 'She addressed it with him but he didn't see it was an issue.'

You absolutely need to tell his parents. He needs to go through holy hell now to prevent him from upskirting and all sorts of other predatory behaviour later. How the fcuk can a boy his age NOT understand this is wrong?

Because the problem is twofold.

1. That he did it.

2. That he thinks it was OK.

I just want to say, well done for being such a great mum, you are clearly very sensible and have a great relationship with your daughter.
Some of the replies here are absolutely ridiculous, MN at its worst!

Excuse typos and duplication in this, it would not upload properly but my points still stand.
wake up @BGP and all you rape apologist posters supporting the OP

How is she a great mum if she allows a nearly adult boyfriend and let them have sleepovers.

Women advocating for the safety of children being referred to as ‘wine fuelled drama’ … Right.

Yep I agree OP.
I think you've handled this situation well. You sound like a good Mum to me.

And that’s the problem.

Nothing will change in terms of boys’/mens’ education, behaviour and accountability while we have women and, PAINFULLY, mothers minimising and defending unacceptable attitudes and actions, and suggesting that others who see it for what it is are over-reacting. Bad enough when it’s the mothers of boys doing this, but to read the mother of a girl (who has suffered as a result of inappropriate behaviour) doing this is the most painful of all.

You need to give your head a wobble and start listening to the messages here you’re finding difficult to comprehend.

come On op mum of boys here, aside from they know by now that you don’t share stuff online or take a picture of anything you wouldn’t show your granny, how can you be defending someone who secretly took a horrible picture of Your daughter?

and how the hell would a boy not know to not take a picture? Would he like someone to take a photo of his bum?

Have you actually read ALL the OP's posts?
I ask because if you think the bit about feeling sorry for the boy makes OP a great mum when her d is on the receiving end?
Maybe you are a friend /relative on board to soften the kicking OP is quite rightly getting for her naive ideas and polarised views on the situation feels sorry for boys / wants to fucking knock him out.
Listening to d is great but none of it need happen to start with if the kid wasn't sleeping over. I doubt he planned on much sleeping given the chance anyway.

She created the situation though by having the boyfriend sleep over.

This is such a weird thread. "My 15 Yr old DD's boyfriend took non-consensual, semi naked images of her in her sleep. She's mad about it, he doesn't see the issue. I feel so sorry for boys nowadays."

There is so much wrong here and that 15 year old girl seems very vulnerable to me. She's 15 yet she's already had various boyfriends she's "posed" around, a year long same sex relationship and now this lad with whom she has regular sleepovers. She's 15! She also has a stepfather and a step brother. What could possibly go wrong?

OP you need to allow your daughter a childhood. We only get one chance at childhood and your adult daughter will be looking back on having been sexualised from a very young age, with the full knowledge and consent of her parents. And as for teaching girls to feel sorry for predatory/entitled boys, well words fail me.

I have sons. Id be very upset if they did this and would absolutely support the girls decision to end the relationship.

Id also understand it if DS just thought it was a cute/stupid/funny pic to take of his girlfriend. But ultimately it comes down to whether he knows if she'd be ok with that and find it funny too. And she didnt.

I feel sorry for them both for different reasons. What a mess op 😔

Presumably you don't stay up all night 'keeping an eye on them' when he sleeps over, and you're obviously not supervising well enough if he's able to go into your daughter's bedroom and take a picture of her bum while she's asleep! I think you have to take some responsibility here, she is a 15 year old child and should be safe from someone taking an inappropriate photograph while she's sleeping in your home. I think it's very concerning that you are allowing her 17 year old boyfriend stay overnight.

As the mother of boys, I think you're wrong to assume that boys don't know this is wrong. My sons would know that it's wrong to take an intimate photograph of a sleeping girl without her consent. Society doesn't condone this kind of behaviour and schools do have lessons on consent and behaviour including upskirting etc. Parents also have a role to play in educating young people.

I really think you need to put the boundaries in place. Speak to his mum, she will be grateful to know and have a chance to speak to him. Also, no more sleeping over, even in separate rooms.

My kids would have strong feelings about a 17 and 15 year old dating.

An entirely new take on women being responsible for men’s behaviour….

They do though. You are just mistaking him for a ‘nice boy’ from a ‘good home’

There is so much ignorance on so many levels with many parents around phones. I am blue in the face warning my son you never take a photo of anyone in any circumstance without their approval. I don't doubt he wasn't properly schooled, but reality is he got to age 17 thinking this is acceptable. I'd let her go with her gut and break up with him, personally. It's not a harmless act to me. It speaks volumes.

Why was he even staying over? Like hell will my kids' boyfriends and girlfriends be staying at that age, totally unnecessary.

The only boyfriend I ever had stay at my parents' was my now DH and I had already moved out and we were just back for Christmas!

P.S. I'd want to see that phone to ensure deletion of phone from gallery, from bin, and from the cloud (auto backed up to Google Photos or the like).