Dd, autism and cake - Thread 2

[bendmeoverbackwards]

I had no idea that my first thread would fill up and I am in awe and overwhelmed at the amount of support.

I am going to re-read all the responses and make a plan. Thank you, this has been eye opening.

Is she perhaps getting the decent uni mantra from content online - there’s lots on tik tok about useless degrees and shit universities. My dd calls me a uni snob as I sometimes say poly rather than the new name (showing my age) so reading into your language even if you don’t actually say it.
Maybe set work/volunteering as requirement for her to continue getting an allowance. Something tangible.
You need to be working or volunteering a minimum of 5? hours a week from September.
I’d book on to a local college access course open day and go with or without her to get info. The staff will have experience dealing with students like her and might signpost you to other options or services locally.

What have her arguments been against volunteering work?
I can’t realistically see her getting a job in this competitive market. So aiming for a small volunteer role seems more realistic.
If you suggested helping at brownies 90 mins a week or a morning a week at a local charity shop for an animal cause or a local food bank what would she say.

I think you need to stop focusing on her behavior and future and focus on yourself. You cant help an adult who does not want to be helped. Put into writing a timeframe on removing her allowances and stick to it, no more pointless debates. If she does not like that she can come up with a plan herself to avoid that outcome. Spend time on yourself and show her she is not in control of you as this seems like a control ssue. She needs to understand that she has no control over you and she is the only one who controls her future.

@bendmeoverbackwards i agree with this but suggest it needs framing in a conversation with written follow up or even just in writing.

’Sweetie, I’ve been ‘nice’ for 3 years. You are now very much sn adult. ‘Nice’ has not helped you to grow and thrive. So nice has to stop.
I still love you. I will always love you no matter what you do or don’t do.
And because I love you I’m going to do my job as a parent the best way I can. You may not agree with it. You may not think it’s nice. But it’s my job to help you grow into an independent adult.

So I am making some changes

starting immediately:

1. i will no longer answer your text messages at work. if you have an emergency you should call 999 and then call me. Everything else can wait.
2. i will not reply to any abusive messages or accusations.
3. i will no longer clean your room or bathroom. Neither will my cleaner.

starting on x date

1. i will no longer pay for your phone
2. i I will no longer allow you to access my wifi
3. I will reduce your allowance to x with a view to removing it on y date. If in the meantime you successfully find a job, volunteer role or start a training course, I will look at how we can financially support you.
4. i will be available to provide advice and assistance if you request it.

you are a very capable young woman. I know that you can succeed.’

@bendmeoverbackwards I’m sure you can find more appropriate language for your daughter but you get the gist… I have deliberately only listed things that are in your control. Remember - you cannot make your daughter sign up for benefits or a course or find a job. But for all the things I’ve listed, you do not need her co-operation or support. I appreciate your daughter will likely initially react very badly to this. But this is where you have to manage you and your own behaviour. Stay strong! If she wants WiFi and theatre tickets enough, she will find a way to make money.

This is like an NVR announcement. NVR is the recommended course of action for "failure to launch" children.

@AintNoPartyLikeANumber10Party I like the sound of this, it’s very clear. Dh and I have dipped in and out of NVR techniques over the years.

Dh and I have been out this evening and I now have over 20 messages from dd. Along the same old lines - she’s traumatised, you don’t recover from trauma, it changes your brain, I sabotaged her education and her life, she has no future, she’s not exaggerating it’s the truth, why stick a label on a child, everyone believed she was a retarded freak etc etc. As tempting as it is to get drawn into this yet again, argue back, go over my justification, tell her we did what we thought was right etc…… I’m not going to. I’m going to say one thing - dd we have discussed this at length and I have nothing more to say on the matter. And then Dh and I will work out exact details of the money situation and our expectations going forward.

It’s an extinction burst. She is redoubling on the tactic that usually works. It is crucial not to rise to it at this point. One message to say we have discussed this and I won’t do it again as there is nothing more to say then ignore.

I think you're making the right decision OP, to not go around again with explanations/justifications etc etc.
It's utterly pointless.

And I hope you feel that a weight has lifted from your shoulders.

You have to change something to effect change in her.
And you have to stick with it.

Agree with your DH re the allowance and expectations moving forward, and make it happen.

Sounds like a good plan OP.

I find it very sad that she refers to autistic people as retarded freaks, especially as I believe you said your other DD has ASD. But I think it's to get a rise out of you, and hopefully she will change her opinion on this at some point.

You sound like a good person OP, and I hope you had a good night with your DH x

Well done @bendmeoverbackwards. Sounds like a very tough couple of days coming if this is the reaction to some gentle boundaries but you're handling it all phenomenally.

You’re doing the right thing. Nothing good will come from going over this again. I think she can sense the change in you and is trying to scare you into doubting yourself.

Next time tell her your phone is on silent/ off so she’ll need to text your DH in an emergency.

You are definitely sounding much more determined. It’s totally inappropriate she’s messaging you 20 times when out with your husband for the evening.
I very much agree not to get drawn in responding.
Definitely make time for yourself and as a couple.
The use of retard and freak makes me think she’s watching a lot of inappropriate American content on tik tok.
Keep going.

A couple of questions - a few days ago, before I decided not to engage with the same old questions over and over, I had taken a curious approach and asked dd to explain more what she means by such and such. Now I’ve said I’m not discussing these things any more, she’s confused. Shall I say I’ve thought it over and say it’s not helpful to go over the same ground again?

Secondly (and related) - people have told me it’s good that she’s talking and opening up to me. By telling her I’m not discussing the past any more is obviously closing down those lines of communication. What are people’s thoughts about this?

I think you risk being drawn back in. She isn’t opening up just bombarding you with her usual. I think speak to her make clear you are happy to have conversations with her focusing on moving forward and making positive plans for future but you aren’t going to respond to messages that simply dredge over old ground like a broken record. You’ve already explained multiple times where you were coming from. I’d also point out how inappropriate it is to message you are work or out with dh in this way. I’m sure she wouldn’t like you texting her 20 times when she’s out with a friend. It’s also another chance to express concern at the content she’s watching on til tok and your intention to do something about this, retard is an offensive slur.

If she was opening up to you and you were getting somewhere then I’d say keep channels open but that’s not the case. She’s just making the same points again and again and you’re going around in circles without seeing any improvement. It’s just an echo chamber.

And re her “confusion” I don’t think that’s true. You’ve asked her some questions, she’s told you the answers, you’ve responded. In most situations this is the end of it unless there are new points (and I mean totally new points) to discuss.

And looking at the other side of the coin it’s pretty clear that she’s lost sight completely of how to communicate with you in a normal way. Sending disturbing messages about self harm, and bombarding you with 30 messages is completely inappropriate. And it won’t help her (plus do you think she’s considering your mental health when she’s doing this?). So that’s why the cycle needs to change. Of course she can still speak to you, or her Dad, it’s just that the cycle of “question, trauma, guilt” needs to end.

I suggest you keep reminding yourself that you are the parent over and over again. Whenever she says sth to you, think about how someone with strong parental presence would say. Don't say anything to escalate her, but engage in a calm, parental way. She isnt going to like not being able to moan at you any more so it won't work straight away. I guess don't be afraid and stay strong.

Secondly (and related) - people have told me it’s good that she’s talking and opening up to me. By telling her I’m not discussing the past any more is obviously closing down those lines of communication. What are people’s thoughts about this?

Ah but it isn’t open lines of communication though. It’s her driving her own narrow agenda. She’s on transmit mode and not listening to a bloody word you’re saying.

And it’s also unhealthy for HER to be ruminating like this and rehashing the same old stuff over and over. So it’s actually a kindness to say “I’m not going over this again. See you later.” And then shut down. Texting you 20 times is abusive. It’s bullying. And she isn’t going to harm herself by you turning your phone off. You are not her emotional punch bag ANY MORE.

I suspect she is confused because you are not reacting in the way she expects i.e apologising and explaining yourself while agreeing she can't be expected to do anything. That's okay.

To be fair to her, I suppose it’s a bit of a U-turn if someone (ie me) asks for further info on what she’s saying and then says I’m not discussing it further.

I suppose, but everyones allowed to say I don't want to talk about that anymore, we have talked about it enough. You are a person with feelings and opinions too. It sounds like she has been criticising you for saying you don't want to talk about it anymore today? Just say, talking about the past hasn't moved us forward and I don't want to keep rehashing it.

It sounds like she is trying to control you by telling you what you are and are not allowed to say. Just don't engage with that. You don't have to justify everything all the time.

But surely you’re not asking for further info on how her life is ruined by you or about her trauma are you? Surely to God you’re well aware on her views on that by now?? THAT’S the bit you are meant to be refusing to discuss anymore. You’ve discussed it for years. Now you’re meant to be either discussing what her long term plans are or how you WILL be reducing or removing her allowance.

You say she doesn’t have actual learning difficulties just autism right? So while she might get fixated on things or spiral around the same topics she isn’t an idiot. You say she looks after small children alone so really she should be perfectly capable of understanding that you refuse to talk about one subject but will talk about another subject.

Has she actually provided any additional information or insight? Or has she just repeated the same grievances and accusations?

If the former, it might be worthwhile discussing those points if they seem to include an opening that will allow her to move forward. But if she is simply rehashing the same old story, possibly with additional details but without any useful path forward, then I'd say there is no point in engaging in further discussion. I'm sure she's not actually confused, it sounds as though she is looking for another way to manipulate you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

Read up on the drama triangle OP. It sounds like your DD is firmly in the victim role, and moving you between rescuer and persecutor. Once you understand these dynamics, is easier to stop engaging in them.

She hasn’t given you any further information though? So nothing at all to feel like you’ve done a u turn about. You don’t know anything more than last week it’s same old blaming you.
I nearly typed you aren’t her emotional punching bag earlier and see someone else has said it.

I don’t think that unhelpful communication is a good thing in and of itself. It’s doing no good to either of you for her to ‘open up’ about the same old stuff as you know it already. It just keeps her stuck to keep going over it all and giving it bandwidth. Good communication would be about her future plans even if that was the barriers to achieving them so you can problem solve them together.

I don’t particularly think you need to give a chapter and verse explanation of a change of approach as it’s self explanatory at the time you say it. If she asks why you are saying that you no longer want to discuss the past you say that you don’t think it is helpful to her to go over it and that’s all the explanation that’s required.