Dd, autism and cake - Thread 2

[bendmeoverbackwards]

I had no idea that my first thread would fill up and I am in awe and overwhelmed at the amount of support.

I am going to re-read all the responses and make a plan. Thank you, this has been eye opening.

This is genuinely abusive OP. I appreciate she might not know it or be doing it deliberately but it’s abuse. And what regard is she paying to your mental health when she’s doing this- none whatsoever.

Honestly it may seem harsh but I’d have lost my shit, checked into a hotel and told her that if she ever did that again I’d block her by phone and she’d have to start thinking about moving out. If she wants to get into this she can chat to her dad, chat to you face to face at a mutually convenient time or see a counsellor.

I know it's very hard, she is brilliant at coming up with clever argments in her own favour and she defines "persistent" and if she was arguing was in a good cause then she could move mountains! (It's a feature of some people with ASCs and they can make very good lawyers.)

But you are still training her that if she keeps on and on at you then you will eventually do what she says. It has to stop.

There is a technique called "lasting word". You tell her what will happen very simply - you will not discuss a topic because it is not helpful. She argues back. You just repeat what will happen - that you will not discuss this topic again. And then you stop talking. That is the end. She can keep going, she can argue, scream, tantrum. You do not say anything more and her arguments and her tantrum do not change anything. It will sink in. You let her have the "last word" but you have had the "lasting word".

Her behaviour is very autistic! You do not have to talk to her whenever she chooses. Set a specific time when you will talk to her and shut her down the rest of the time. If she needs to get it out of her head at other times she can write it down.

If you don't want to talk to her at bedtime (and who would!) it's important to tell her when she can talk to you. Don't be avoidant, don't try to use body language. In her head if you wont talk to her now she doesn't know when she can talk to you. And that is terrifying. All she knows to do is to keep going on at you right now or wait for you to come home and try again. You need to spell things out - "we can talk after breakfast tomorrow / talking time is 6.30pm tomorrow / go back to your room and write it all out so you can tell me tomorrow. Bedtime is for sleeping."

Thank you, this is really helpful. We did actually have a bolt fitted to our door some time ago but didn’t need to use it because DD’s night time visits were much less frequent. And when they do happen it takes me by surprise so I’m not prepared.

As much as I can set firm boundaries, it’s very hard when she ignores them and appears in our room at night and won’t leave. Maybe we should lock it as a precaution?

Gosh that is unbelievably disrespectful to her dad and I'm amazed you ever allowed that to happen 😳😳

You are entitled to peace in your own home and personal space.
Ideally she’d respect your boundaries but if not then yes I’d lock your bedroom door. Say goodnight and then retire to your room and lock door.
But you do need to be reinforcing you are entitled to personal time and space and her behaviour is inappropriate. I’d be pointing out she may not want to risk walking in on me and dad having sex for example. Not talking at midnight doesn’t mean you don’t want to talk to her just there’s a time and place. It sounds like she doesn’t like you/family or cleaner in her room so why doesn’t same apply to you. If she was doing same to a partner in future she’s at risk of being investigated for coercive control if they reported her to police for domestic abuse.
You honestly sound like you have been so beaten down you can’t see this is abusive. Do your other dd not tell her to leave mum alone. You also sound like you have patience of saint, menopausal me would have snapped told her to F off.

I would try not to use a physical lock. An endlessly repeated "go back to bed, nightime is for sleeping" (or Lasting Word) would be better.

What you are really trying to do is to totally change DD's behaviour around communication. There are lot of different things she needs to learn. Learning to listen to DH. Learning when it is and is not appropriate to talk to you. Learning what it is useful to talk about.

A phsyical lock would be a last resort if you'd really tried everything else for a while and all else had failed.

The risk is that if you lock the door on her she'll just start banging on it. Sorry! Maybe if you spell the expectations out to her first and tell her when she can talk to you and that you will remove the lock when she has learned not to disturb you at night then she wont try banging on it.

But I would first try setting expectations and sticking to your guns without the lock.

This.

Taking a train across the country is very much for themselves, that's not benefitting the family or household, they are independent enough to do it because they want to
I wouldn't consider that in the same light as doing household chores cooking laundry etc that helps out others in the family.

It’s horrible to think you may have to lock yourself in your bedroom in your own home you pay for. Please do look after yourself Op and consider your own wellbeing.

What am I reading????????

We have locks on all the doors which were fitted before we bought - and I lock my room because I don’t want the trauma of my kids strolling in if I’m butt naked or at it with my partner.

OP this young woman is ALL about controlling you.

Her ways of relating to others are actually the biggest problem. She will have a very lonely life if this isn't gripped. Friends, romantic partners and colleagues won't put up with this.

You can almost hear her brain, when faced with any boundary from her mother, saying “Like hell will you disobey me.” This seems to have become her life’s focus.

Id have lost my shit years ago - and it would be a kindness. Bloody hell, the coming in the room
and not leaving? Why don’t you or your husband tell her to feck off out, NOW or the phone and router get a hammer taken to them? I cannot fathom it. And I say that as a mum of 3 ND teens with PDA profile, who wouldn’t dream of pulling that shit.

I agree with previous posters that her behaviour is absolutely abusive, you shouldn't have to live like this. If she continues to get away with and get attention from this behaviour she's going to very likely behave the same way, or even worse, in any future romantic relationships, in which case any partner would be quite entitled to report her to the police for coercive control and leave her with a record for domestic abuse. I think locking the door could be worth a try, and just completely ignoring her if she knocks on it. She's less likely to carry on if she's not getting any attention for the behaviour.

@Teenthree we have tried everything. Dh has my back and will tell her very firmly to stop bothering me and leave. We’ve both lost out shit but it just escalates the situation and she still won’t leave.

Short of physically manhandling her, what else can he do in the moment?

Leave her alone in the house and check into a premier inn?

How often does it happen on average? Nightly, weekly?

If she ends up in an assisted living facility staff would be 'manhandling' her out of rooms she shouldn't be in (obviously with training on the correct way to do things).
My point is she is only behaving like this at home because you allow it, one way or another.
I worked with several severely autistic men in a group home, we had limits on how many times they could ask the same question and stuck to them. They were very manipulative people and each only cared about what they wanted in that moment. The key is to recognise that their want isn't a need that you have to comply with.

@bendmeoverbackwards you've been really brave to be so honest about how things are. You can't change everything at once, so pick one thing.

It sounds like the way she communicates is the priority because it's what's she's using to check that she's in control of her life. I would say the following by message, so that she can read it and re-read it, and can't change what was said later:

"DD3, I'm sorry that you've felt so let down by your teenage years and that you blame us for your current situation. You've told us about it so many times, and we understand how you feel, and that we can't change it or undo it by apologising.

The way we communicate isn't working for any of us. You don't feel heard, and nothing we say satisfies you. It has to change.

Going forward, the following changes are going to be made:

• we will not be responding to messages that discuss the past. If you want to talk things through, we can do that but it has to be at a time that is convenient for both of us.
• text messages are only appropriate for factual questions or information. For example 'will you be in at 6pm?'
• we will not restrict the way we communicate with you. If Dad wants to tell you something or ask you something, he will do so. I can't be the only one who talks to you.
• I need you to stop refusing to do things because I'm not nice enough. I can't take responsibility for your decisions.
• I can't deal with late night conversations. I won't discuss emotive issues after 9.30pm. I'm willing to talk but I can't sleep if I am talking about emotional things late at night.
• Our bedroom is off limits. If I have gone to bed, or haven't got up yet, you'll have to wait until I'm downstairs.

We love you and we're committed to you, but it isn't helping you to allow you to blame us for decisions you are making. If you want to talk about how you can make small steps of progress, that would be brilliant. But we're not going to keep going over the past."

Then stick to it:

• If she tries to discuss something by text: "Remember we don't do text messages for this stuff now. Come and talk to me/I can talk at 4pm/we can talk tomorrow"
• If she comes in to your room: "DD2, our room is off-limits. We can talk later/tomorrow." If she continues, ignore her. She will run out of steam eventually. It will take ages the first time, but it will take less and less time if you stick to it.
• If she's blaming you 'Sorry you feel that way.' then ignore.
• If she kicks off about DH 'DF has told you what's happening' then ignore.

Great post @Lougle . Excellent advice.

Not too often thankfully. At times I’ve come close to leaving and going to a hotel but not so easy at midnight with no bag packed.

She says she ‘can’t’ talk face to face 🤷‍♀️

That's fine. I have one like that. Believe me, if it's important enough, she will. Or she can write you a letter.