Dd, autism and cake - Thread 2

[bendmeoverbackwards]

I had no idea that my first thread would fill up and I am in awe and overwhelmed at the amount of support.

I am going to re-read all the responses and make a plan. Thank you, this has been eye opening.

Yes I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about posters who are denying that this YP is neurodiverse or are denying the impact of autism generally.

I'm having struggles with my own autistic daughter who is showing some similar behaviours to the OPs daughter (although she is a little younger). There is nothing wrong in calling out bad behaviour in autistic YP. There is a lot wrong with suggesting that autistic YP do not have genuine struggles.

I don’t people suggesting that DD doesn’t have struggles.
She clearly does. But she’s also guilty of bratty behaviour - she doesn’t want her mother to talk about her humanitarian aid role because she sees it as “guilt tripping”.

The OP is a person too with her own needs € it’s high time DD3 started learning this.

Yes I know.

I feel I am being really misunderstood.

There were posters at the end of the last thread that had no understanding whatsoever of autism. One of them came on early on this thread. Perhaps you missed that.

I have no doubt that the OP is being treated appallingly by her daughter. My daughter is causing issues for me and my husband. I am interested in this thread because it is a supportive thread to the parents and some of the tips that OP is receiving are actually really helpful to me.

What I was literally pointing out was the minority of abelists on the threads who were suggesting it is 100% behavioural and suggesting that the OP should not have pursued diagnosis. That is not helpful in anyway.

The OPs daughter has challenging behaviour that the OP needs support in changing. It is not supportive to suggest her daughter should never have been diagnosed in the first place.

Anyway this thread is not about me. it is about OP and her daughter.

OP, might it help to explain to your DD that her medical information is entirely private? If she’s unhappy with the diagnosis, she can choose to ignore it, she never has to disclose it to colleges or employers or anyone unless she wants to.
At the moment, it seems like she’s using the diagnosis as a stick to beat you with, while you are inadvertently using it to excuse her behaviours.
You did absolutely nothing wrong by seeking a diagnosis, and she may even be grateful for it one day. But for now, if it’s causing so much tension, it might be worth saying something along the lines of: 'If you don't feel this diagnosis fits you, that’s fine. We can move forward without that label, but that also means there's no reason not to pursue work or study.'
Then you could encourage her to see a therapist if she feels traumatised? Would she be any more likely to engage with therapy if it was done remotely rather than in person? Lots of therapists do zoom appointments now, some even do therapy over email for people who struggle with talking?

@bendmeoverbackwards I think you need to sit her down and have a very frank conversation. You have tried through all of her teenage years to support her. This is obviously not working. The only way forward you can see for her is for her to see a therapist to discuss why she is feeling this way. You have been understanding, flexible, supportive but for whatever reason she is stuck in this loop and you cannot get her through it, as much as you would like to.

If she hates being miserable, then she needs to put the work in with someone who has the skill set to help her.

Re her relationship with her father - do you think she is less attached to him as he sets boundaries and calls out her behaviour instead of trying to appease and make amends?

Personally, from what you are writing, she sounds manipulative to me. She knows when she can get you to question your parenting, you will go out of your way to give her what she wants. You say you are her "safe" place but her most recent message says she's had something going on since she was 14. She's had 5 years to talk to you about this, but has chosen now as you set a boundary with her cake. Based on your other thread, this will have you trying to make amends for months.

I think she needs to work with a therapist and work out a way forward. She cannot stay forever stuck and you don't have the skills or knowledge to move her forward.

@k1233 shes talked to me many times over the years about the diagnosis. But this is the first time she has sent me such a long detailed message. I’ve read the message several times now and I’m wondering if they are even her own words, maybe she asked Chat GPT to write it 🤷‍♀️ Just not sure. She gave an analogy of someone losing a family member in a fire and that person being blamed for not putting out the fire.

Her black and white thinking is extreme. She says categorically 100% that the diagnosis is wrong and a ‘lie’ and has tried to get me to admit it’s a lie. And that she knows herself best and if she says it’s a lie then that’s the truth and I should believe her. She seems very dependent on my approval.

@Milliontoonechance Ive said to her many times that as she’s now an adult she is in complete control how she defines herself and what she discloses. And that I no longer need to speak or advocate for her. And at any new educational setting or workplace, she can start afresh. But it’s not enough for her. She’s stuck in the past, how awful it was and still is, how it’s changed her.

And she thinks the damage is already done by having 8 years of people believing the wrong thing about her and she can’t get that time back again.

@bendmeoverbackwards I'm sorry that must be so difficult for you. It’s a hard pattern to break when she’s relying on you for everything but blaming you for everything at the same time. Do you think if you took a big step back from parenting her and your DH took the lead it might help get her out of that pattern?

I would love to do this but I fear it would make her feel totally rejected.

@bendmeoverbackwards She gave an analogy of someone losing a family member in a fire and that person being blamed for not putting out the fire.

I'm not sure how that analogy applies to her, but it certainly applies to you. As I said on your last post, you can't win. Everything you do will be the wrong choice. If you could rewind back to when she was 11yo and not do the assessment and then she had no offer of additional support etc through high school, then it would be your fault for seeing she was displaying an autistic trait and not investigating further, which has held her back for life. She could have done better in school if you had acknowledged she was different. (Blaming you for not putting out the fire)

You went the other way and did the assessment. I honestly think saying it was for secondary school isn't that much of a stretch. You wanted to ensure she had support through school so she could do her best if she needed that additional support. That came from a place of love, not judgement. If the test had come back as she didn't have autism, then you saved her that stress and her thinking you thought "there was something wrong with her". Which would have been her stick to beat you with for the last 8 years - you thought there was something wrong with her and made her do an autism assessment, how dare you. (Blaming you for starting the fire)

She doesn't want to accept the diagnosis and I honestly think the only way for her to work through her feelings on this is with a therapist. You can't do it because of your relationship with her. A therapist will help her deal with what is making her uncomfortable and non accepting of the diagnosis.

I didn't read all the comments on the previous thread OP, I can see though you said she won't engage with professional help, which she can't be forced to. I do wonder though if you might benefit, because it seems like you are struggling to set boundaries and not accommodate every need her "autistic brain" comes up with. You are trying to please and soothe someone who can't be pleased or soothed, and these things are not needs, they are wants. Yes, she can't help her brain thinking in this way, thinking things must be done in a particular order, etc. That's the autism. But that also doesn't always have to be accommodated by others, particularly now she's an adult. I'm autistic and there are lots of things about how the world actually works compared to how it should work in my brain that make me uncomfortable, but I can't change those things and I have to sit with the discomfort of not being able to change them. Some things I can opt not to do, if they are too distressing, of course. I'm quite chill about birthdays, but DS1 is very specific about his, and he used to find it so difficult if anything didn't go to plan. If he had a meltdown or didn't want to do the rest of the day, then fine. We just offered empathy for him feeling like the day was ruined, and moved on. Sometimes we had to go home if a curveball was too much. OK DS, that was too much for you yesterday, I'm sorry, that must have been hard/disappointing that we couldn't do all the things we planned because x happened. But the next day, we're back to normal life, no compensating for things outside our control, no trying to achieve the perfect birthday after the fact. It might sound harsh if you have NT kids, but just getting back in the normal routine for DS1 was much more containing than trying to placate, soothe or compensate.

A therapist experienced in understanding and working with autistic adults and families may be able to support you to set boundaries, change your responses and stop trying to appease and bend yourself every which way so you might finally make her happy. She isn't happy. She doesn't want to be autistic, but she is, and you can't change that. No amount of compensatory cake is going to fix it, and the only thing you can change is your own response and your own ability to tolerate her not being ok.

By the sound of it, you’ve been tying yourself in knots for years trying to make her feel safe and shield her from disappointment, and yet she still manages to interpret so many things you do as rejection anyway.
I know it's easier said than done, but I think you'd be better off not worrying much about her short term feelings (which aren't really within your control anyway) and instead focusing on her long term happiness.
The only way she has a real chance at that is to step out of these current patterns so she can start to mature and gradually build a meaningful adult life for herself, learning to make her own choices and accept the risks and responsibilities that come with them.
It may well take something that really disrupts this pattern between you to shift the codependency that’s developed. You obviously love her to bits, and I’m sure she’ll always know that deep down, whatever she might say in the moment. 💐

Thanks for starting a new thread @bendmeoverbackwards

Maybe some food for thought.

You say this is the first time your dd has sent a such a long message.
It ties in with the first time you insisted she make a decision, and when she didn't you followed through with an action.

What happened when she was 14? Was that the year her sister got a better cake?

Having looked at your posts on this thread, and several of your last ones, it seems as though, with the best of intentions on your part, you've let her get away with becoming tyrannical.

As someone with a lot of neurodivergence in my family, I know how difficult and rejection sensitive teens can be (ugh!!), and how you have to approach situations carefully in order to not set them off (tying yourself in knots!), but the behaviour she's displaying isn't just autism, imo, it's a huge helping of being a spoilt brat with a side of autism.

I don't know where to start unpicking the tangled knots, but some thoughts that might hopefully be helpful?

No, you shouldn't have lied to her about her autism assessment, and I didn't catch why you thought she shouldn't be able to consent to it? Or be aware of it? I also can't remember if you've outright said that you are sorry you didn't inform her, and you should have asked for her consent? But you can't undo that, so no point beating yourself up. You did what you thought was best.

Have you asked her "is there anything traumatic that has happened to you that I don't know about?" As a pp mentioned, her insistence she's so traumatised makes me think it's possible something has happened that you're not aware of that's been eating away at her.

This may be bad advice, but I might try telling her that ultimately it doesn't matter if she's autistic or not, because it's not like there's any treatment for it. So if she believes she's not autistic, then you're happy to accept the diagnosis was mistaken, although you sought it in good faith.
But I'd tell her that her actual behaviour - not getting her education, not having a job, sitting around at home all day like a lump - is not acceptable, and as a young adult, she needs to start doing more.
If she doesn't feel ready to work or study, then write her a short list of itemised chores for each day - vacuuming, clean toilet, dust living room, do dishes, prep dinner (not necessarily cook it) etc - and tell her that you expect them to be done when you get home from work. This is something my mum did with me when I was a young teenager, haha.
It gets her doing something to lighten your load and keep busy. If she does it, praise her for doing it. Yay, she's such a huge help, so amazing! Then give her more to do.

Tell her she needs to pick a course to do by the end of the year (or within 6 months, or whatever), and then stick to that. Be enthusiastic and excited about the possibilities, but nag her about it.

Get your husband to do more.

When you're stressed, tell her that you're a human being too, and you already do so much for everyone, and you're exhausted, and you can't deal with her shit when you feel stressed - and then get DH to deal with her. Leave the house and go for a walk. Remove yourself from the equation, because you keep pandering to her. But equally, do fun, focused things with her - some nice mother/daughter activities or days out, so she sees that it's not rejection.

Disclaimer: Most of the bits of advice are variations on things that have worked on me/my kids. Success rates may vary! Use at your own risk!

Does she truly believe that she is not Autistic op? If so then perhaps she should have another assessment? Two are highly unlikely to be wrong.

Is she referring to the post diagnosis years at school as the trauma? I’m guessing she means the complete change to her identity after being told she was autistic and that she needed extra support at school? This could have effected her self esteem and belief in herself / her academic abilities, causing the wheels to come off with attendance and lower exam results than she’s been aiming for? Did she receive any therapy or anything after her diagnosis or over those years at secondary?

Was it just after the diagnosis that you told her she was autistic and did you explain immediately that you’d bent the truth on why she was there for the assessment?

Sorry for all the questions but I’m Autistic myself as so is my dd 15 and as a Mum I really feel for you, I can also see your dd’s points in a way, not excusing any of her behaviour that was hurtful to you, just that I can see how certain things might link and make sense in her brain. The paradox being that she is thinking and acting this way but also not believing she’s autistic!

Im navigating tricky behaviour and emotions myself with dd, so I’m finding your thread very interesting and helpful. I can relate to so much of what you’re saying and feeling as a mum, but also can see how your ds’s viewing things as an autistic person.

I’m assuming she wouldn’t engage with family therapy?

This is really well put.

I also think OP that you need to start talking to DD about your needs & feelings. I was a very selfish teenager (it’s the stage of development to a point), and I wasn’t able to see past my own nose.

I’m not proposing you be dramatic but if DD is getting upset post work I’d explain calmly that you’ve been at work all day, you need rest & you have things to sort in the house.

Any more anger about the lack of disclosure around the autism assessment I’d say it perhaps wasn’t the right decision not to tell her, but it was done out of love and that you are human yourself.

DD3 needs to start seeing you as a person. Not as someone whose role is her safe person, dumping ground etc.

Anymore dwelling on the past - firm response, you can’t keep going over this (much like the cake). Point out she has been offered therapy & people overcome difficult situations all the time.

I think this is very positive. The more she shares about her actual feeling the less controlling she will need to be.

Be firm but understanding. Empathise. "yes turning the next age is a bit like a loss especially in childhood when you change so fast, that's understandable. But with growing up also comes opportunity and freedom, so good things"

Tell her she did very well sharing this. And that being "cold" (or assertive) does not mean your bond is broken it means you trust her enough to be your true self.

Plenty of teenagers the world over “miss” their teen years for various reasons. It can’t be an excuse to never ever grow up. Otherwise all that happens is you “miss” your young adulthood then middle age in a pit of wallowing. One day she’ll be 40 and then what be moaning she missed her entire youth?

If she really feels “traumatised” and like she’s missed out and entire chunk of her life because of it she needs therapy. You cannot go back in time. This is one thing mum or anyone else can’t fix. You just can’t go back in time so what else can you do? She needs therapy to get over it. That’s the only solution. Otherwise instead of having 5 years of missed life she’ll have 30.

I’m 40 & 100%. I remember going through some v bad Mzh periods inc in my 30s and my mum saying to me “you’ll never be 33 again.”

Her teen years are over. Maybe she missed some of the teen experiences, but a lot of teens are v unhappy, it’s a difficult life stage IMO. She can’t turn back the clock, so put it to her that she will “miss” her 20s.

My Audhd dd can be like yours. She’s 19 and often says things like ‘be nice’ or ‘stop being horrible’ when l’m not.

RSD is part of the ADhD profile. I wonder if your Dd has this? All the obsessing about cake hurt.

Mines completely rejected her ASD diagnosis too. She does talk freely about her ADHd though. And ADhd meds have really helped.

The 2 are often co-morbid.

OP, it has been suggested several times now, that the pattern between you, of her manipulation and your efforts to try to please her ever more crazy ideas, must be broken before your DD can move forward.
It is that toxic codependency that is holding her back from having to accept the consequences of adult life. It started with her diagnosis and has continued ever since and she still prefers the comfort of acting as if everything is your fault, holding you entirely responsible for her own very poor choices.

You doing your loving best for her isn’t working, because the toxic pattern becomes further ingrained in your relationship.

Your responses to the suggestions that you step back are that you do occasionally go away on your own or with your DH but that you are her safe person. But that’s not helping.

Your DD proves herself very capable at rubbing along with her dad when you aren’t around, and is also very reliable in her babysitting duties which she seems to accept and enjoy like any normal teen. But yet she is Is desperate, fighting tooth and nail with you to continue the toxic pattern as if her life depends on it - and you oblige every time because you love her and because it’s easier to give in.
She refuses point blank, to see a professional therapist. That’s all because she is frightened to accept the consequences of life. Sadly, you can’t force her to help herself positively in that way. You could get therapy support for yourself though OP as all this must be so hard to take in and to make the changes. And it would model to DD that’s it normal to need outside support at times.

I think, as hard as it will be, you have to make much more of an effort to step right back from her, especially at flash points which trigger her fear and therfore her obstinacy. Her dad, who she gets on with when you aren’t around, (only nastily shutting him down when you are present and she’s trying to control you) must now lead the way to guiding her out of this terrible situation she has locked herself into with you. And you have to either be absent or refuse to be involved in the way you have been as her kicking boy.

I am wondering what her successful older sisters think of this situation OP? Can they perhaps dedicate a bit of their spare time to guiding her towards being able to make sensible education or work decisions for herself while you take much more of a back seat. Could she spend more weekend and holiday time with them maybe, under their positive influence ?

I think it was actually, there’s 4 years between them. But I don’t think that’s what she means. Interestingly, it wasn’t until after Covid that the wheels came off at school and she would have been 14 then. Year 7 and half of year 8 went very well in spite of having just had the diagnosis in the summer before year 7. She thrived at school both academically and socially. The school were informed of her diagnosis but no discussions were needed at that time.

After all the lockdowns dd started to struggle. So I sometimes wonder if it was the effect of lockdown that resulted in difficulty, rather than the effect of the diagnosis. But dd would claim that even if things looked ok, those first years were still terrible for her.

I think she means that she stopped enjoying birthdays at 14.