Dd, autism and cake - Thread 2

[bendmeoverbackwards]

I had no idea that my first thread would fill up and I am in awe and overwhelmed at the amount of support.

I am going to re-read all the responses and make a plan. Thank you, this has been eye opening.

Discussed the money issue with Dh today. He reminded me of something the new therapist we’ve been seeing suggested. She said rather than cut off her funds without any discussion, we should treat dd like an adult and discuss it with her. Otherwise we are just treating her like a child. Something along the lines of - what are you spending your money on? How much do you need? What is the plan going forwards? I’m not completely convinced about this but can see the logic in treating her like an adult.

I think that is reasonable, sit down and have the conversation with her, and involve her in the plan.

I would say that adults don't get free allowances though, only children do. So continuing to pay it is infantilising her much more than not including her in the discussion about it.

You can treat her like an adult but everything you’ve said suggests she’ll just respond like a child? So where will that get you? If she just responds with “you’re being mean. You’re pressuring me” or maybe just runs away and slams a door. What then? You can’t talk to someone “as an adult” if they respond like that? This feels like a case of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I think if she does that, then OP just carry on with a reasonable, thought through plan. The important thing is not to respind to 'you are mean' with 'ok, sorry, continue having your allowance as things are.'

@bendmeoverbackwards what does you DH think about reducing and stopping the allowance, other than the way it's approached?

I'm glad that you seem resolved to make changes. Let me tell you a cautionary tale from my own family. I have two siblings. One of them has ASD. He is extremely intelligent, achieved excellent results at university, but has never had a job. He is kind and empathetic but incapable of forming friendships. Although I think he always had the potential to live a more fulfilling life, my parents were generally so concerned with protecting him that they didn't really encourage him to push himself beyond his comfort zone. (Admittedly, there were far fewer resources when he was younger and far less understanding of autism than is available nowadays.) He was supported financially by my parents. Both of my parents died in recent years, and he is reliant entirely on the money that he inherited.

My other sibling is NT but is (not to put too fine a point on it) lazy and manipulative. She wanted to live the life of an artist but always wanted someone else to bankroll her. Not surprisingly, my parents were the ones she always turned to. In part because they knew how much support our brother received and in a misplaced impulse to be fair, my parents shelled out huge sums of money to my sister and essentially supported her as well, though she lived independently and had a few jobs here and there. She too is now living off the money she inherited.

I know that my parents acted with the best of intentions. But I think they were wrong in enabling both my siblings. My ND brother would have benefited from a different type of support: more help with social skills, expectations that he could build a career, etc. My NT sister should have been told that she could stand on her own two feet, full stop.

FTR I have been financially independent since graduating from university. I never took a penny from my parents after that. I own a house, I'm married, I have an interesting career. I feel very fortunate. I don't have the slightest bit of resentment about the way my parents acted, since I know they were doing their best. But with the benefit of hindsight, I'm also sure they would have behaved quite differently, and I strongly believe that both my siblings would have been better off.

Well I sort of get that but adults are not dependent on their parents for money are they?

It depends on the terms of the conversation. You have the right to decide what you do with your own money so the cards are in your hand. The conversation is more ‘now that you are an adult how are you going to provide for your own needs once your allowance stops?’ Maybe how long will you need to make alternative arrangements? Is a reasonable question. I mean if she says I need hundreds a month and my plan is that you keep supporting me then that’s not the real world is it?

It’s easy to say that you’ll do this in principle. But given that you’re currently unable or struggling to hold much more basic boundaries, such as chores and allowance, it’s unlikely at this rate that you’ll find yourself able to make her homeless or put her in assisted living. If downsizing without her is your goal, then you really need to start taking much bigger steps towards that goal. Especially given how slow progress seems. Hopefully you can see that your current behaviour is at odds with the future life you want.

I know anyone can say anything on here and you don’t need to believe me but honestly I really really wasn’t. I look back on myself and cannot believe how immature I was until I was about 30 quite honestly. I was the classic “much younger mentally than my years” version of autism. Even as a kid I was still playing with dolls at 11/12. Then I was still storming off and slamming doors at about 22 I think. I can’t tell you the awful things I used to say to my mother. Looking back I think she handled it the best she could despite not knowing I was autistic. She would be accommodating to a point. She never rose to my ranting the majority of the time. I can still remember one of her lines to me. “I can see you’re having a down day today and that’s ok.” She would allow me to stomp about and rant. She would allow me to change jobs frequently and work in a corner shop for minimum wage 3 days a week and not pressure me into higher education despite the fact I got 9 As at GCSEs. But there were many things that were just not optional. And sitting about the house doing fuck all while she went out to work then came home and cooked for me was one of them.

She’s dead now but I feel bad that I only ever cooked her a meal for the first time when I was about 32. It’s quite sad really. We really connected and became very close in my 30s. She understood me a lot more than I thought she did at the time. But still. There wasn’t a chance in hell I was sitting about in the house doing nothing for years.

And like I said I still hate working even now in my mid 40s. 🤣

Yes this is an impressive list of things that she is not too anxious or traumatised to do when they are on her own agenda. It would appear that she can in fact do a lot of things if the incentives are right for her.

I agree with speaking to let her know you are going to be changing allowance but the way you have worded it she’s got all power.
I can understand a conversation like what do you spend money on. How much do you think you need. Then we aren’t going to keep paying indefinitely, adults don’t get allowances and of course we both want to treat you like an adult not a child with pocket money. What’s your plan? Suggestions could be babysit more, claim UC, apply for PIP etc.

A tapering approach might be helpful.
So we’ll cut it by half for 3 months then review. If you are studying from September then we can look at how we can support you as a student.

I would say that a lot can change between now and the death of the OP and her husband! Just because their daughter wouldn't qualify for assisted living now doesn't mean that will always be the case.

My nephew tried to commit suicide, was sectioned twice. He is in supported living due to mental health issues. He wasn't this bad at 18 - he was in fact in full time work and had a girlfriend then, which is more than OP's daughter is doing. You just never know.

Another possible scenario is that she has moved out but is on UC. Then if she inherited, she would lose her entitlement to UC. So benefit advisers would recommend a trust.

With yp like this you often have to keep updating your will as their needs change.

I was thinking more about joining different Facebook groups, linking up with other parents with adult children like this. Investigating borderline personality disorder maybe.

There is a Facebook group called Failure to Launch which is for parents of highly dependent adult children. Might offer different strategies from the PDA people.

@bendmeoverbackwards I agree with the first part of your post but not the questions. Ie I think you should discuss it with your daughter as an adult but the framing needs to be around the fact that you cannot/will not indefinitely provide an allowance so what is her plan? And if she doesn’t have one when will she have one? You and your DH can agree/negotiate a time frame as to when and how the allowance will reduce but with the clear aim of removing it completely by x date.

Because functional adults don’t get allowances from their parents.

So she either admits she is not functional and agrees to get professional support - and you keep going with the allowance until she is ‘well’

or she moves forward in her life as a capable adult with age-appropriate parental support.

i also agree with the pp who suggested that your daughter’s behaviour to date suggests she won’t discuss with you as an adult and is likely to flounce/slam a door. Even more reason to set the framing clearly up front …

We have similar brothers. Mine has done a bit better in that he has managed employment, but sporadically, and isn’t working in areas he has his degrees in. He earns a pittance in an insecure job, after years of not working. He has an ex wife who still supports him, and supervised time with his DC.

My mother scaffolded heavily for him throughout his life, this has included him living with them when he has had issues with drugs, lost jobs etc.During these times everything was everyone else’s fault, including other family members caught up in the maelstrom. They have never addressed his anger issues, inability to hold down jobs, drug and alcohol problems and his abusive relationship with his ex-wife. I think they were scared of confronting him. He’s entitled and self-absorbed and my mother has spent her life removing or smoothing over obstacles. She has called this “being supportive”.

The sad thing is that my mum now has dementia and he has lamented that, “I don’t think she really knows who I am as a person anymore” and has pretty much cut contact from daily FaceTimes to low/no contact. My stepdad is bewildered because he thought they had a close relationship, but it was only ever transactional and on my brother’s terms. I assumed my brother was sad and avoidant but when I talked to him he pretty much said he wasn’t too upset, but there wasn’t any point in talking to her anymore. She still loves a chat though, and likes to hear about peoples lives though.

Please can someone reassure me. I’ve been asking dd how she is spending today and what her plans are for this year - studying, job etc. She’s still saying she can’t do anything if I’m not being nice. I’ve said a) I’m being nice by providing a comfortable home, food and love, and b) it’s she’s serious about university then someone being nice or otherwise shouldn’t affect that. She said it does 🤷‍♀️

You are being nice by caring about her and thinking about her future. Also by supporting her towards her goals. Allowing her to spend all day (her life) doing nothing would not be nice or helpful for her.

Stay strong OP. Change rarely comes easily and you are doing the right thing.

Yes I know, I just worry about this never ending story of her saying she can’t do anything unless I’m nice.

Reply no it doesn’t. You are an adult. I am being extremely nice and supportive financially and emotionally. Adults don’t need their mummy being ‘nice’ to do anything. Leaving you to bed rot on tik tok day in day out isn’t being nice.
I’d be very tempted to pick up her phone/ipad and put in your work bag and say well you won’t need today that if you aren’t making plans and leave for work.
Do you ever lose your shit Op?
I’m calm most of time. But on odd occasion I do think showing your true emotions helps and they at least see you are a human. It’s literally been a few times when dd has pushed me way to far but made a huge impression. One was when she was 11 ish and slammed a door (your post other day made me think of it) a heavy mirror in hall fell off wall - by some miracle didn’t smash but damaged floor slightly. I can remember standing in her room really shouting and she never slammed a door again.
She’s 20 now and most times we have a really good relationship. But if she’s taking the piss I will literally say that. I don’t often swear so it makes a real impression.

Worth flipping her argument on its head? You’ve done virtually nothing for nearly 3 years (you finished GCSEs June 23) I’ve been your view of ‘nice’ for 3 years and you’ve taken no positive steps for your future. I don’t accept your argument that you need me to be nice to do anything because the facts speak for themselves.

She's manipulating you. Nothing short of continuing to treat her like a very spoiled toddler for the rest of your life will ever be enough. If you don't want that, then you're going to have to be a lot less nice. I don't think asking her is going to get you anywhere. She's not going to take anything you say seriously; why would she? She knows you're easily manipulated and probably believes you'll just give in soon and go back to the way things have always been.
I don't think she's going to have any motivation to do anything unless you stop the allowance, start ignoring her tantrums, and stop funding her to live in the lap of luxury while doing nothing.
I'm not sure why you're asking her about researching university courses. Didn't you say before that she had you going around different universities when she hadn't even started A-levels and couldn't be bothered to get out of the car? You'd be better off stopping the allowance now, paying for only basic food, and encouraging her to find a job instead. Even if she somehow got to university, what makes you think she'd stick it out or even bother to turn up at all?

But by her definition you’ve been nice for years and look where she is. She’s done nothing productive in the time you’ve been “nice” and it’s not motivated her at all.

So now you’re continuing to be calm, and “nice” and supportive but you’re also going to be fair and expect more from her because despite whatever wrong she feels has been done to her she is now self sabotaging far beyond that. I wonder if you play out this scenario to her how she would react; what does staying her room forever more look like - is she expecting to be acting this way when she’s 30, 55? Has she just given up on ever leading a normal life because she cannot let go of her perceived betrayal?

I’d just have some phrases to repeat, like I’m not being mean, I’m being productive. I’m not being mean, I’m expecting the same of you as I do your siblings; that you do something with your life and not rot in your room. I’m not being mean, and I cannot change the past but when you wish to accept my help with planning your future I’m here for you.

What “more” realistically looks like is something you can offer to support her with, but I’d be firm that continuing what’s gone on is not acceptable. That you’ve given her three years and now you’re finding a new way to move forward.

I think the main thing Op is staying strong and not backing off.
She knows if she pushes your buttons you back off and leave her be.
Things will be harder as you attempt to move things a long.

Say ‘ I can’t be nice to someone who’s not nice to themself’

Honestly OP, the more you posts the more frustrated I get with you 😵‍💫😂😂
Forget what works for others, forget what the FB groups advise .. what works for one won’t work for another. Stop asking us “what will I say when dd says xyz”, “how should I react now” etc. You’re a grown woman with grown, adult children. Don’t listen to her crap about it all being your fault - it’s not! I’d also stop the uni talk for now, it’s going nowhere, I don’t even believe it’s what your dd wants - it’s just another way to blame you and wind you up.

Write yourself a list of what you want dd to do going forward, daily and weekly, your expectations of her - ie make her bed every day, shower and dress every day, help with meal prep once per week (set day), clean her room once per week etc.

You are not asking the world of her, you’re giving her basic daily living expectations for now. Then move on to other things once this is sorted and achieved.

Find your confidence m because honestly, she’s playing you like a fiddle. You’re tying yourself up in knots, analysing everything you do and say, when actually, you’ve done nothing wrong.

Forget the PDA stuff. She doesn’t have a diagnosis, she wouldn’t engage to get a diagnosis, her problems are stemming from inside herself to begin with. That may not be the issue here. Just deal with what you know and have got right now. I genuinely think you’re confusing yourself and making yourself worse the more you’re trying to think, work out and solve.