Dd, autism and cake - Thread 2

[bendmeoverbackwards]

I had no idea that my first thread would fill up and I am in awe and overwhelmed at the amount of support.

I am going to re-read all the responses and make a plan. Thank you, this has been eye opening.

And what do you think about that?

You definitely don't need to be any nicer to her. You've been far too nice for nineteen years by the sound of it! I think a lot less niceness and a lot more backbone would be a much better idea. I know it's not easy but you need to start ignoring her manipulation or you aren't going to get anywhere, and before you know it she'll be thirty and still in the exact same situation.

I worry that although it’s most likely to be manipulation, it might not be and she genuinely can’t do stuff unless I’m ‘nice’. But actually thinking about it, that’s not healthy and you cannot hold another person to ransom like that, even your mother.

Right?

I have just caught up with this thread - I’m drawn in because I have had (still had) a similarly difficult daughter. I don’t think my daughter has ASD but she got stuck in a bit of an overthinking, socially anxious rut at around 14 years. She’s 18 now.

Your comment about how your DH is more likely to impose boundaries on your DD, but the she is probably less close to him, resonated with me, because when I enforced boundaries on my own DD, it felt like she hated me.

Do you think this is part of it for you? are you worried that if you make some changes she’ll shut herself off from you? While the preferred outcome is that a mother guides her daughter into a successful and independent adulthood AND they remain close, with some mother/daughter dyads you might have to choose between your child having an independent life and being besties.

OP I get that this is difficult but you need to man up a bit here. You know the answer to these questions.

You need to be kinder to yourself. You are 'being nice'. You are caring about her and about her future. You want her to be happy and are encouraging her towards this goal. You are on here asking for advice on how to make changes happen with the least amount of upset to her and the rest of the family.

Read up on EUPD and PDA but don't be manipulated. You are being nice.

@bendmeoverbackwards you can talk to your DH about anything you like especially your children. DD3 shouldn’t be policing your marriage.

And all the whining you’ve reported tonight… Jesus wept… you need to treat it like the noise it is…

Your daughter doesn’t want you to be ‘nicer’ - she wants you to keep being her human punchbag. Woman up!

And she definitely doesn’t need you to be nice - where’s that got her?

Keep going. The fact she’s reacting means you are having an impact.

continue with your plan to set expectations and gradually reduce the free luxuries like WiFi and allowance.

Who cares op? Does it matter if she doesn't like your tone? She isn't the tone police! She doesn't have to like everything you do. You are doing the right thing. She most likely will find it unpleasant but that doesn't mean you should stop.

It's just the adult version of a younger child who wants a second ice cream and is having a strop because you tell them no. Doesn't mean you should let them have a second ice cream because it feels unpleasant for them. In the long run too much ice cream is bad for you.

To respond to her I would rehearse some stock phrases you can say which convey what you want her to hear so you aren't caught off guard and end up giving in.

Maybe 'I love you but I do not like your behaviour.' Or 'I love you and want you to experience the world. You are stuck and I am guiding you to change.'?

Very much this, it will be hard due to where you are with her but power through!
and please apologise to your other daughters!

How would that work that she can’t do something sensible towards her own future unless you speak to her in a certain tone? How would that practically stop her? This is a demonstration that her self worth is excessively tied to your approval.

She really should not be so dependent on your approval at this age. She should be OK to do something that you disapprove of and know that she is still loved. That’s what normal teenagers do.

I think that your relationship with DD is enmeshed and unhealthy and that is why people have been advising you to involve DH more and indeed do stuff just the two of you. You must not let her interfere in your marriage in this way. You should go away for weekends and stuff more just the two of you and let him deal with her more.

In your latest posts you just described/ demonstrated emotional fusion, over involvement and excessive communication all hallmarks of an enmeshed relationship which is a common cause of failure to launch.

Your own behaviour is the only behaviour you can change but you need to do that to break the enmeshing so that she can move on. I am surprised a family therapist didn’t comment on this. Run it past your current one.

you address this with boundaries, strengthen relationship with DH and no secrets, stop giving your opinion on her every decision and give responsibility back to her, refuse to accept rude behaviour

This is the consistent advice that people in this thread are giving because it really is quite obvious from the outside that your relationship with DD is problematic and is not helping her. It doesn’t matter how it got to this place (road to hell is paved with good intentions) but it needs to change now

Following with interest as I have a similar situation with my young adult child.

On the waiting list for Audhd assessment but it’s been three years and still waiting.

It’s tough.

Musing about this thread this morning.

Teenage years are the time when you learn how to exist in the world. Not only is your daughter not learning essential skills (A levels, how to be in the workplace) She is actually learning really unhelpful skills, like how to manipulate someone into doing exactly what she wants with no empathy.

Last night you described all the ways she is trying to manipulate you into letting her continue living for free with no responsibilites. This needs a really firm response (not saying you have to shout at her!) You need to call it out, no I won't be manipulated like this, you aren't having the wifi in the day and I expect you to sort out your next steps. No stop trying to manipulate me, this isn't OK.

You need to teach her that she can't change her situation by accusing others of being horribel and pressuring them to do what she wants. For a start, no one outside the family would accept this so she will be rejected. And she will be at risk of becoming an abuser in a relationship.

You really have created a dynamic here where you have given her all the power and nothing will be fixed until you reclaim some of it. she knows she has that power over you.

'Growing out of it' only works for things that are developmental, like food or sleep. This isn't just developmental, but your entire relationship dynamic. If she will not participate in therapy with you, you need to do it for yourself to begin the work from your end.

I've made the assumption, possibly wrongly, that op understands PDA and has been using the strategies the PDA Society recommends with no success. I've also made the assumption that her therapy/ involvement in any local groups centre on PDA profiles of autism. It's an assumption because I don't think she has specifically said.

A more robust PDA friendly approach is definitely needed (which will still look very different from the strategies many posters here are calling for) but I think the op wants to try the tough love approach because she's spent 2.5 years in a frozen stasis taking a no demand/ gentle approach which hasn't worked so thinks it may resolve things. It might do of course, if this is simply a manipulative maladaptive 19yo we're talking about (personality) who is choosing to behave this way. And she might be.

However, at this point, and given everything op has said about her dd, the far more likely impact will be that she regresses further - perhaps to the point of no longer being able to do even the limited things she does now. This won't be a popular opinion though, and my intention isn't to worry the op more than she is already.

PDA is an incredibly difficult profile to understand and work with, so I totally understand why the 'toughen up and distance yourself' approach is being recommended and will most likely be pursued. Adults like to think that they can take control of situations and make others behave in a more acceptable way. It's human nature. And it often works with neurotypical younger children who can do well, by virtue that they have a brain that's wired for success in a neurotypical world. The trouble is when that child is no longer a child, but an adult with extremely inflexible thinking coupled with very high levels of anxiety/ mental health issues. It's really hard for parents to differentiate in this situation between what is a behaviour choice and what is a genuine inability to do differently.

I am prepared to be dismissed/ flamed for this and I know I'm in a minority of one on this thread, but I genuinely want to help op and can't just sit here and say nothing if saying it might resonate with her - even if further down the line if/ when hardening up to her dd doesn't work the way she wants it to. I genuinely hope the advice she's taken on board from other posters works for her.

What would you suggest OP do @Whatafustercluck? What does the robust PDA-friendly approach entail?

I don’t disagree with you btw. It’s hard to predict how OP’s daughter will react to the tough love approach advised by many on here.

No she doesn’t get to dictate what you share with your husband. She’s not the boss of you. I’d shut that right down.
You are being nice. You are not being mean. You are providing full financial and emotional support, she’s an adult.
A toddler thinks mummy isn’t being nice if she stops them eating lots of chocolate or makes them brush their teeth. But mummy would be mean if she didn’t brush their teeth. I’d say that to her.
I’d flip her arguments on their head. It’s mean if I enable you to bed rot on tik tok all day.
She sounds extremely child like. I know with an ND diagnosis can present a couple of years younger so more like 16 than 19. But her language is more like a young tween. I have a close relative mid 20s with an eating disorder in all likelihood autistic (awaiting diagnosis but I have always thought she was from junior school age) and she puts this childlike act on - says mummy, baby voice, very childish eg squealing over a teddy. Your dd sounds very similar with her do you like me/you are being a mean mum.

I agree. My experience with young women with autism is that you can't change their mind through discussion. I don't think the tough approaches will work necessarily but I also think OP needs boundaries for her own well being.

It’s emotional manipulation. it’s not healthy.
If you die tomorrow she doesn’t ever do anything with her life as she needs you to emotionally support her?
You are a person entitled to live your life. If you go on a 3 week once in a lifetime cruise with dh she just sits in her room watching cat memes until her emotional support is back with WiFi and in contact.
She knows exactly how to push your buttons.
You know you are a good mum if you don’t let your toddler gorge chocolate - I have read back and seen another poster has said exactly same as me using ice cream as an example.
Trust yourself. You have started being stronger. Don’t shy away. She wants to make it difficult for you so you leave her be.

I've put some ideas further upthread. I won't repost because I don't want to needle op into defensiveness. Headline though is that yes, she does need to scaffold more structure for her dd, and maintaining the status quo isn't an option. So you introduce more structure in PDA friendly terms, based on low demand, strong personal interest and building up from there slowly.

Op doesn’t have to be an emotional punching bag for her DD. She certainly doesn’t have to fund a phone, WiFi and generous allowance.
Cutting lot off the lot the dd may lie in bed staring at ceiling for weeks. I strongly suspect not. The no WiFi threat got a quick apology out of her. I think on a previous thread Op mentioned a hunger strike that lasted a few hours. The dd may do the hate you I’m leaving home but like a child would turn back at end of road as nowhere to go.
No one is advocating throw her out or not feed her. Op is willing to speak to her and support her. That doesn’t mean she has to reply to messages or get embroiled in messages about tone or being mean. Op can say no I’m not getting into that for her own health and wellbeing.

Your perspective is appreciated and you won’t be flamed by me at least. None of us can really k ow what will work or not in this individual case. OP just needs to pick a plan and stick to it.
Everyone has a different perspective and I have admitted that mine is from a CBT/ systemic therapy perspective and I don’t know much about PDA.
At the end of the day having a consistent approach that is kind but with some element of challenge seems better than doing nothing at all.

Thank you all, I really appreciate it.

Regarding not telling dh things, I went along with this previously because I didn’t want to stop her talking and opening up to me. So I would tell her I wouldn’t share things with dh (although I gave him the headlines privately if I needed to get it off my chest). But that’s not being honest with her which isn’t ideal.

I have extensive experience with autism and I think some of the “tough love” advice here is too harsh. However there do seem to be signs of deliberate manipulation (eg the texts). Autism and manipulative behaviour aren’t contradictory. She will have learnt that it is a successful strategy.

i think OP needs to focus on changing her behaviour and boundaries not simply with the goal of changing her DD, but because there are relationship issues here. She has learnt to be passive and cede all control, inappropriately IMO — she even realised that with the kitchen example.

I do not think she can simply force her DD to change, but implementing boundaries is really important for healthy relationships and until now she has not been doing this.